Which Forester

[Ratbag]

Gidday NL

Update: Kiri got an RACV check done on the '03 NA Foz. Came back good and haggled a good deal, deposit put down Friday.

Congrats to your niece.
She was fortunate to have a wicked uncle to help her out :iconwink: :ebiggrin: .

Which one was it, exactly?
I will have a browse back through the thread, but I recall looking at quite a few that you investigated.
[EDIT] Got it. One of the first ones you looked at. How does she feel about the 4 spoke steering wheel? I found it difficult to come to terms with in the '04 I test drove.[end edit]

Turns out she could get an exemption for the Foz GT but not XT, so went with this one. Very nice clean car...

I think that the government is right to ban inexperienced drivers from owning or driving cars like the WRX and turbo 2.5 Fox. They may be far safer than many (most?) other cars on the road, but the power is still very easy to lose control of. I remember having just that experience on a Kawasaki 750 in my youth; ditto on a 350 Honda racing bike.

Don't know what they can do regarding turbo diesels. These things have massive amounts of torque, and torque = acceleration, more or less. The turbo diesel 2.0 L Fox has the same torque as the XT Fox - about 50% more than the torque my N/A 2.5 L has!

 

[thunder039]

can drive any turbo diesel just not turbo petrol. and you say hi powered i have to remined you the commodores and falcons both produce more power

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Thunder

can drive any turbo diesel just not turbo petrol. and you say hi powered i have to remined you the commodores and falcons both produce more power

There are other things in play as well.
Gearing, torque to weight ratio, power to weight ratio, "sexiness quotient" (young male "displaying" to other young males ... :ebiggrin, etc.

P-Platers are also banned from driving Fords/Holdens with high torque to weight ratio, and "sexually attractive" engines. This is patently part of the government considerations, as shown here:

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Hom...edriversandprobationaryprohibitedvehicles.htm

This image showing power to weight ratio placard from the above URL:

There are about 1,550 banned Ford vehicle models; and around 1,600 banned Holden vehicles. Hard to suggest that VicRoads has it in for Subarus ... See here:
https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/exeres/2CCDA928-0B07-404D-B6A5-F14AC2356E20.htm

Just about the only people who fail to understand the rationale behind these restrictions are some under 25 y.o. males ...

Did you read the Age article I posted the link to?
The relative frequency of the kinds of behaviours it outlined so well is far higher in young males than it is in any other group. The example of the white Pajero, shows that this kind of behaviour can also occur in young females (27 y.o.) but is FAR less common. So uncommon, in fact, that it is statistically insignificant.

There are simply huge developmental and emotional differences between males and females, specially around this age. Most females are fully mature mentally by around 21~23 y.o. This occurs by around 24~26 y.o. in males.

These differences are most obviously reflected in the relative frequency of risk-taking behaviour. Rare in young females; common in young males ...

 

[taza]

can drive any turbo diesel just not turbo petrol. and you say hi powered i have to remined you the commodores and falcons both produce more power

Audi Q7 V12 twin turbo diesel :rotfl:

Would burn off Mr Turbo in his Foz XT Give any crappy Commodore a run for it's money :lol:

 

[Rally]

The current Falcon has more power than an HSV of the 90's and is hardly lacking in torque. The new Subaru sports car has as more power than the last Brock Commodore. While my first car was a 351 GT Falcon V8 at the age of 18, I guess I might appear hypocritical if I concurred with the idea of limiting high performance cars for young drivers. But while I am quite prepared for a friends 17 year old sone to race my WRX on the skidpan, there is no way I'd let most adults do the same thing.

Driving slowly and carefully is all well and good until something goes wrong and you have to react. It is not just young drivers who should be under a microscope- all drivers should be. My dear old mum is a case in point. Been driving for 50 years, but really she has no idea. Legally, she could drive a Bugatti Veyron- and that is just stupid. This particular 17 year old is exceptionally mature, does not feel the need to prove himself and he is a better driver than almost anyone I know. I'd much rather him on the road driving a high powered WRX or V8 than the average driver in a Camry or Commodore. Your car control does not improve with experience beyond the most basic skills unless you develop them.

As for the Audi. Bring that over sized tank to the skidpan and let's see how it goes.... The XT would also see off most Commodores too

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Rally

The current Falcon has more power than an HSV of the 90's and is hardly lacking in torque. The new Subaru sports car has as more power than the last Brock Commodore. While my first car was a 351 GT Falcon V8 at the age of 18, I guess I might appear hypocritical if I concurred with the idea of limiting high performance cars for young drivers. But while I am quite prepared for a friends 17 year old sone to race my WRX on the skidpan, there is no way I'd let most adults do the same thing.

I think that this is the same error of logic that Thunder was making mate.
Arguing from the particular to the general.

In my youth, the saying was that:
young male drivers were the most skilled; and the most killed ...

Driving slowly and carefully is all well and good until something goes wrong and you have to react. It is not just young drivers who should be under a microscope- all drivers should be.

Agreed. But I hadn't noticed that they weren't ...

My dear old mum is a case in point. Been driving for 50 years, but really she has no idea. Legally, she could drive a Bugatti Veyron- and that is just stupid.

At just behind your Mum with 47 years driving experience under my belt, I have driven almost all the available muscle cars that anyone was silly enough to let me ... I also hold a National Heavies licence ... However, I also realise that my reaction times and judgement of speed and distance are not quite what they were when I was 20 y.o. and drive accordingly.

If it's not a rude question, may I ask how long it is since your Mum has been involved in any kind of accident that was in any way her fault, or to which she contributed in some way?

Last time for me was when a motorcyclist tried to kill himself on the highly dangerous front bar of my LC back in the mid-1970s. I was stationary at the time ... Just realised that this was about 35 years ago ... Not so much as parking rash since then.

There have been very many occasions when I might have had a bingle since then, but experience allows you to see it coming, and to know what the appropriate evasive action might be.

Like NL, I found out the hard way just how dangerous cars can be - by hitting some things in them. But that was back in the 1960s ...

This particular 17 year old is exceptionally mature, does not feel the need to prove himself and he is a better driver than almost anyone I know. I'd much rather him on the road driving a high powered WRX or V8 than the average driver in a Camry or Commodore. Your car control does not improve with experience beyond the most basic skills unless you develop them.

This may be all well and good, considering that one particular young man. It may also be true ... :iconwink:.

Just because someone is driving a Camry or Commodore, does not make them "the average driver". If I am driving a tractor, I drive it according to the known limitations of tractors, with which I am familiar. I can tell the difference between our Camry and Roo1 or Roo2, even at 40 km/h in a suburban back street. I have driven many Fords, but avoid them because of the company's known "commitment" to safety - i.e. none ...

As for the Audi. Bring that over sized tank to the skidpan and let's see how it goes.... The XT would also see off most Commodores too

In the right hands, so will a N/A 2.5 L Forester. Try any road with a few curves in it ... Even dear old Roo1, gutless as it was, was a very fast car point to point. I once managed 284 kms in 1H 55M from North Terrace Adelaide to Bordertown in #1 Colt (1400cc engine ... ). I did start out at around 0200H, however. The road was shocking in those days, too (c. 1981).

 

[taza]

The current Falcon has more power than an HSV of the 90's and is hardly lacking in torque. The new Subaru sports car has as more power than the last Brock Commodore. While my first car was a 351 GT Falcon V8 at the age of 18, I guess I might appear hypocritical if I concurred with the idea of limiting high performance cars for young drivers. But while I am quite prepared for a friends 17 year old sone to race my WRX on the skidpan, there is no way I'd let most adults do the same thing.

Nice, that falcon would of flown. My Father had a V8 Kingswood with four on the floor manual as his first car.

Driving slowly and carefully is all well and good until something goes wrong and you have to react. It is not just young drivers who should be under a microscope- all drivers should be. My dear old mum is a case in point. Been driving for 50 years, but really she has no idea. Legally, she could drive a Bugatti Veyron- and that is just stupid. This particular 17 year old is exceptionally mature, does not feel the need to prove himself and he is a better driver than almost anyone I know. I'd much rather him on the road driving a high powered WRX or V8 than the average driver in a Camry or Commodore. Your car control does not improve with experience beyond the most basic skills unless you develop them.

One thing when comparing most young to old drivers though is that old people tent to have a slow reaction time. While experience will be in their favour their time to react could be a few seconds longer. When an accident can occur it can only take a few seconds to change the whole situation.
I would do almost anything to improve my driving skills. IE; to have more control all the time, especially when doing a slide or more performing stunts and actions.

As for the Audi. Bring that over sized tank to the skidpan and let's see how it goes.... The XT would also see off most Commodores too

Haha it would get flogged weighing at 3.5tonnes. Still a nice car though.

Yeah an XT would, even a stock GT Foz is just as quick a a standard V6 Commodore of the present day. An XT though wouldn't beat a manual v8 Commodore without some mods though. I'm not familar with Fords much so I can't compare.

 

[Rally]

I appreciate that young male drivers are overly represented. There are various reasons for this- poor training, poor attitude amongst them. Mum has not had an at fault accident apart from car park accidents- but then she does not drive far or much. It scares me though that if something did happend what her response would be. I fear I know. The XT has the same engine and output as an MY08 WRX. Off the line the XT would do ok- it would not be disgraced anyway.

My point abut all drivers under the microscope was that before anyone is allowed into a high performance car they should undergo further testing

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Taza

One thing when comparing most young to old drivers though is that old people tent to have a slow reaction time. While experience will be in their favour their time to react could be a few seconds longer. When an accident can occur it can only take a few seconds to change the whole situation.

One needs to be somewhat careful about this kind of generalisation, mate.

Reaction times vary dramatically from person to person.
So does predictive ability.
So does risk-taking/risk-averse behaviour.
So does judgement of speed and distance.
Etc, etc.

Governments need to work with population statistics and modal values for all these skills (minus about 1 standard deviation ... ); not from individual values.

With young males, one is dealing with extremes all the way down the line. e.g. Possibly good reaction times and judgement of speed and distance; but extremely poor predictive ability; high risk-taking quotient; combined with lack of experience.

IMO, it takes around 5~10 years (depending on mileage travelled ... about 100 to 200,000 kms) for a driver to come across most of the commonly dangerous situations, and successfully negotiate them.

Self-preservation is also a wonderful thing. It becomes better and better developed as we get older ... An older driver may well have reduced reaction time, but this is balanced by other things. They are FAR less likely to engage in risky behaviour on the road. They are also far more likely to 'automatically' take whole lots of possibilities into account; things that the younger driver doesn't even know yet ...

 

[Ratbag]

G'day again Rally

I appreciate that young male drivers are overly represented. There are various reasons for this- poor training, poor attitude amongst them.

Exactly

Mum has not had an at fault accident apart from car park accidents- but then she does not drive far or much. It scares me though that if something did happend what her response would be.

With that kind of record, she is either more careful than you give her credit for; or is a better driver than you give her credit for ... :ebiggrin: .

I fear I know. The XT has the same engine and output as an MY08 WRX. Off the line the XT would do ok- it would not be disgraced anyway.

My point abut all drivers under the microscope was that before anyone is allowed into a high performance car they should undergo further testing

I agree entirely.


However, it seems that the only things that have had significant positive effects on the road toll are:

• Tougher licensing testing and conditions, including the probationary licence system;
• FAR better car design - particularly roll-over angles, including steering and suspension design, brakes, and almost universal deployment of protective design features such as progressive crumple rates, crush-proof passenger compartments etc, pioneered in the original Mini;
• Compulsory fitting and wearing of seat belts;
• Four & six pack air bags;
• Baby capsules/child safety seats;
• Better roads and signage.

Just to name a few major items.



IMHO, things that have contributed little or nothing:

• "Safety" cameras for speeding; but I fully support red light cameras, as long as they are not "nice little earners" like the now infamous Nepean Highway/Karen Street red light camera ...
• Alcohol testing. IF a death or injury can be shown to be related to alcohol or drug use by the driver, then by all means throw the book at them, big-time. Merely 'taxing' alcohol use in the current way is just pre-emptive punishment IMNSHO. We do not jail people because they may commit murder; only if they have committed a murder, for example.
  [EDIT] For the record, I have been teetotal since 1986; and do not use any "recreational" drugs. [end edit]
• Politicians generally ... :lol:

Just a few thoughts on this often emotive issue; an issue where one is more inclined to encounter lots more heat than light ...

 

[Rally]

Mum is certainly cautious. But as I said, she does not drive many k's.

I hate these "Safety Cameras" which are both red light and speed cameras. I find I am so busy watching my speed I've almost gone through a red light!

 

[Ratbag]

G'day again mate

Mum is certainly cautious. But as I said, she does not drive many k's.

SWMBO's Dad drove until he was well over 80. His Doctor sent him for a compulsory driving test, suspecting that he was no longer fit under the statutory guidelines "Fitness to Drive" which is the ultimate arbiter of these things, Oz-wide. This booklet covers all health and age related reasons that can lead to restrictions or cancellation of the right to drive (really, this is a privilege; not a right ... ).

Dad passed with a perfect score at 80+.
Not sure that I could at 64+ ... :iconwink: :lol: :ebiggrin:.

I hate these "Safety Cameras" which are both red light and speed cameras. I find I am so busy watching my speed I've almost gone through a red light!

School zones are even worse! A few copper mates say the same as I do:

• So busy watching the speedo;
• asking "Is it a school day?" - hard, if you don't have children, or school-age children;
• different days for private and public schools ... ;
• that's when one realises that one is not looking out for the kids!!
• WHOOPS.
• Isn't this supposed to be the primary function?

Isn't it a shame that things are not quite as simple as some think they are?

 

[NachaLuva]

can drive any turbo diesel just not turbo petrol.

Audi Q7 V12 twin turbo diesel :rotfl:

Hahaha :rotfl:

But while I am quite prepared for a friends 17 year old sone to race my WRX on the skidpan, there is no way I'd let most adults do the same thing.

Can I???

Haha, no need to answer lol :lol:

As for the Audi. Bring that over sized tank to the skidpan and let's see how it goes.... The XT would also see off most Commodores too

Haha it would get flogged weighing at 3.5tonnes

3.5T? Crikey!

Yeah an XT would, even a stock GT Foz is just as quick a a standard V6 Commodore of the present day. An XT though wouldn't beat a manual v8 Commodore without some mods though. I'm not familar with Fords much so I can't compare.

I imagine the FPV would be similar...

The XT we drove was surprisingly fast. 155KW

 

[mr turbo]

I hate these "Safety Cameras" which are both red light and speed cameras. I find I am so busy watching my speed I've almost gone through a red light!

I hear you on that one Rally. I've almost done the same thing a couple of times

The other thing that gets me about the cameras is the flash, when it goes off, it so blinding at night

I was driving along James Ruse Dr (late at night) a couple of years ago & saw 2x cars racing from the opposite direction
I knew there was a camera & just new they (racers) didn't give a
As they flew past, the camera flashed them both. Even though I was expecting the flash, it still blinded me for a second or so

Now if I was blinded by it, even though I was expecting it, I wonder how many people have had an accident (due to swerving, sudden braking etc) due to the sudden flash, that they're not expecting, goes off ?

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[Rally]

I think XT is 169kw?

 

[mr turbo]

I think XT is 169kw?

The MY05 (same shape as mine) is 155kw
When they updated & changed the shape with the MY06 (shape/model after mine) the engine picked up a little more power & was boosted to 169kw

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[taza]

155kW would still hammer along though!

 

[mr turbo]

155kW would still hammer along though!

It sure does :biggrin: :biggrin:

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[thunder039]

155kw isnt alot when you compare to a commodore the new sidi engines prodice 210kw! and as much torque as a diesel forester! so still believe its right to let a young p plater to drive a rear wheel drive ute with this much power compared to a tame 155kw from a four wheel drive wagon?????

 

[Rally]

Commodore weighs a lot more as well. My WRX came standard with 160kw- and it had no problem with that much power hosing off a 5.7 litre V8 VT/VX Commodore- either standing start or rolling start.