What factors make Off Road Ability?

Even though this thread seems to have moved slightly off the original topic ill add this.
A big factor on offroad ability is the driver, someone who doesnt know how to drive offroad is going to have a bad time. My Dad has lots of storys from when he was young and used to drive offroad a lot, a time before everyone had 35"s and twin lockers, when recovery tracks were bits of wood you found, when a winch was your mates pushing the car.
He had a old landrover with a Holden red motor and it went anywhere he wanted it to. His first car was a Holden HQ wagon which had a lot of time offroad as well.
Back to offroad ability, comparing my driving (which is still better than a lot of people) with my Dads I can see my faults as a beginner driver, some things he does while driving the Foz I say in my head "you need way more speed than this" but nearly every time it gets up no problem. He is usually telling me that im "driving too fast" and that I "dont need to driving at that speed" which when I slow down I find is true.
Last thing ill add is this, an experienced driver in a stock 4x4 will go the same places as an inexperienced driver in a highly modified 4x4, imagine an experienced driver in a highly modified 4x4...
 
experience sure needed, but then on those new lad cruisers you just point car to direction you want and do nothing more it will do all itself and take you where you pointing. so you can be pretty much noob with it and go places then 5-10 years experience oldschool lifted moded 4x4 couldnt. so it depends as allways.
 
OneSixty said:
Back to offroad ability, comparing my driving (which is still better than a lot of people) with my Dads I can see my faults as a beginner driver, some things he does while driving the Foz I say in my head "you need way more speed than this" but nearly every time it gets up no problem. He is usually telling me that im "driving too fast" and that I "dont need to driving at that speed" which when I slow down I find is true.
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Yeah I agree, So many times when i go off road i see people people tackling hills with too much speed. If you have traction, you dont need momentum. Your dad sounds like me talking to my son, but my son is only 5.:lol:
 
well depends your forry is 2.0 NA manual dual range or auto , or its turbo . iv been in local forester meatings now couple times and i saw how different forrys drive some are just shy 2.0 auto which cant do nothing without momentum at all, other with manual dual range doing better , for turbo im not so sure it works offroad anyway without momentum , you just need to floor it to get power. so thats how they drives on offroad tracks that we have which is mostly soft forest tracks, mud , little sand. and how else could you drive if you are like 7th car going after 6 others who make track impossible to drive anything else then momentum , so i floor it too on 1st gear fixed with VDC off to get most wheel spin, otherwise i would just got stuck. when im alone as much as i can i drive as slow as i can and using VDC to help me pass diagonals and such and reduce wheel spin.
 
jf1sf5 said:
I'd love to drive that Elephant Hill trail with my Forester ! The reason why the Touareg needs traction control is because its an iron...no flex at all !
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Hmm...drove it ten days ago.

Even under the best of conditions a normal Subaru has no chance due to both traction and clearance. Yours and a handful of others with true locking center might make it, not sure about the bumpers, it would depend what the AA and DA are.

I am sure that the stock 200-series Land Cruiser on the video (not sure it is posted here) either had a very long day or took a bunch of scrapes on the undercarriage or at least the skids.


It was not really challenging for me but I did have to pay attention almost all the time and took a rock slider hit on one spot where I did not.
 
yes flex makes things , but so high price you payed for that flex that its just not pleasing for me. if no flex then traction control or some kind of lockers as say grand WJ using varilocks and i can buy WJ with varilocks for price of 2001-2003 outback. then newer WK using 3 elocks even and it has IFS allready so drives much better on road now , still have then very good lockers for those models who have QD2 not QT2 sure.
some local dude made remade redid some parts and made long travel forester for some 600 euros with oil based shocks. and its pretty much flexing out there. so could be done cheap too .

those guys call it long tavel
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoM4rDc4Jb0&t=314s"]Subaru Forester DIY lift with LONG TRAVEL rear - YouTube[/ame]

long or short travel you will go down same in snow
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYWhxcg_90Y&t=25s"]Subaru Forester long travel suspension - YouTube[/ame]

and its really not short flex there, about $600-700 only to make
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ-KjBNkCls"]Forester S/tb long travel suspension. - YouTube[/ame]
 
I joined a few friends for a day of off road fun in the Glasshouse Mountains region of South East Queensland. For those unfamiliar with the area, it's between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast, just a few kilometers west of the Bruce Highway and about 45 minutes drive from Brisbane. It's predominantly clay soil with tracks varying from properly formed gravel to narrow rabbit runs where vehicles have pushed through the lantana scrub. It is undulating hills with a variety of climbs and descents with many of the tracks with ruts up to a metre deep and almost impassable except for the very brave, the very stupid or someone with an illegally modified, highly capable vehicles. Mud holes are in almost every dip and valley, some that could swallow a car.

There were 4 cars in the group:
1. SH diesel Forester manual with 2inch lift and a snorkel, fitted with KO2 AT tyres
2. SG Forester XT auto with 2 inch lift and Khumo mud tyres.
3. Isuzu D Max auto (has low range) with 2 inch lift and Cooper AT tyres
4. SH Forester 2.5 NA auto with 2 inch lift, snorkel and Toyo AT tyres. (my car)

As an interesting comparison, we all negotiated one particular bog hole using almost exactly the same line and at the same speed. The SG and the DMax both got stuck in the same spot on the first attempt. The SG had several more unsuccessful attempts and was eventually pulled out by the diesel Forester. The DMax made it out on the second attempt.

The blue SH (mine) almost made it out on the first attempt and easily on the second and the silver SH made it through on the first attempt (not on video) though the driver had been there the day before where the other three had not.

Ill attach the three videos and ask you to comment on what you think made the difference in off road capability between the three vehicles being compared.

DMax in the mud hole - [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq9grP5BlaA"]Glen in mud hole - YouTube[/ame]


SG mud hole attempt and recovery - [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbVWHLzd7FQ"]Darren in mud hole - YouTube[/ame]

My SH on first attempt - [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3nLtRfkXfE"]Me in mud hole - YouTube[/ame]
 
I tried three ways to attach videos from you tube and it doesn't look like I was successful at all. Sorry. I give up.
 
Beachworm said:
I tried three ways to attach videos from you tube and it doesn't look like I was successful at all. Sorry. I give up.
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Success finally - well done! I merged the vids into the referencing post.

The mud hole looked a bit tricky!
 
Beachworm said:
I tried three ways to attach videos from you tube and it doesn't look like I was successful at all. Sorry. I give up.
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Interesting, thanks! It is hard to tell anything from videos:


Video 3: does the rear pax tire have traction? If yes, then the issue is VDC not being good enough, not having rear locker. If no, then the issue is articulation (lack of).


Video 1: looks like the rear pax is off the ground with the rear driver too deep in mud to have traction.



Also, the tilt transfers weight to the wrong tires.



Looks like you want the pax side tires more firmly on the ground (so flex) and better traction distribution (so effective traction system and/or lockers).



I am not sure low range matters here.
 
I'm wondering why the D Max, as a larger vehicle, did not go straight through the mud hole rather than getting hung up on the edge?
 
I have seen a lot of 4WD action episodes with the D-Max. I am very unimpressed with its traction control. At least on TV, it looks nothing better than a Subaru VDC.



Of course, I am not familiar with how it works, what modes if any it has, and so on.


I guess I should not have said that, Subaru VDC varies by model. Our Tribecas both have had a very aggressive VDC that would rather stop any and all wheels even if that means the vehicle does not move. That would be great in rock, where a TB cannot go, but it is a problem in loose stuff, where the TB can go.


By contrast, my OB would spin like crazy on rock under the right circumstances, as if it is on a tire burning contest. There were times when VDC worked just fine and times it seemed totally over its head.
 
In video 3, the right rear wheel (as you see it) is in a deep hole full of mud and water with an almost vertical exit.

In video 1 the right front (as you see it) is in the same hole.

The Forester was able to pull the front up the steep exit from the hole but the D Max was not.
 
Kevin said:
I'm wondering why the D Max, as a larger vehicle, did not go straight through the mud hole rather than getting hung up on the edge?
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Good question. The D Max was in low range which means its VDC was not working. As it has both diffs open, its only advantage would have been a locked centre diff. How much power was applied by the driver at the critical moment is a variable that I can't comment on.
 
Beachworm said:
In video 3, the right rear wheel (as you see it) is in a deep hole full of mud and water with an almost vertical exit.

In video 1 the right front (as you see it) is in the same hole.

The Forester was able to pull the front up the steep exit from the hole but the D Max was not.
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Yikes! I forgot for a moment you have the driver on the wrong side:rotfl:


I mean the rear right wheel in direction of travel, so in your case, rear driver wheel:lol:
 
Perhaps it would be helpful if I give a comment myself, seeing I was a participant and an observer on the day. Others can then critique my comments.

All three drivers in the videos chose an extreme right hand line as the water/mud was too deep to go through the middle. This was a mistake. Hidden beneath the murk were the deep tyre ruts of large 4X4 vehicles and the left hand wheels of the trio fell into one of the ruts. Because vehicles on previous days had also become stuck, their mud tyres had dug a deep hole right at the point of exit from the water so we all came up against an almost vertical, slippery wall of clay almost at the water's edge on exit.

The interesting thing to me is that the SH Forester was the only one of the three that managed to get the front wheel to climb out of that hole. Being the driver, I could put that down to driver skill level as I was the most experienced off-roader of the three but I believe my tweaked VDC also played a role.


It is also interesting that the mud tyres on the SG didn't seem to give it any advantage. After the first attempt, the group leader directed all of us to shift our exit line slightly to the left which gave us a sightly less vertical exit. The SH and the D Max were able to drive out on the new line but the SG could not.

I was pleased to hear that the group leader took another set of vehicles on the same track the following day and a Nissan Navara and Nissan Patrol got stuck in exactly the same way.

My conclusion from all of this is that the critical factor in off road ability is the driver's skill in choosing the best line. Knowing when to apply throttle and when to back off is next most important. In this case, the tried and true method of slow in and heavy on the throttle out was proven correct. Traction aids such as VDC were significant but less so than line choice and tyre choice was least significant of all.

Keep in mind that my observations apply only to this particular situation.
 
Beachworm said:
My conclusion from all of this is that the critical factor in off road ability is the driver's skill in choosing the best line.
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Absolutely - and Subie drivers / ex-drivers are usually much better at picking the right line as those who are only experienced with larger 4WDs usually rely more on the ability of the vehicle.
 
Beachworm said:
My conclusion from all of this is that the critical factor in off road ability is the driver's skill in choosing the best line.
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That was my first thought when I saw the clips yesterday. Most people usually talk about the capability of their vehicles when, in fact, the more moolah a person has, the more moolah he/she can dump onto a more capable vehicle, so it's easy to get a much more capable vehicle. Driving skills, though, that's a different story. Subarus are less capable on paper but with both axles getting power all the time and with its lightweight frame, a keen driver can clear obstacles, even though in very limited lines.

This case, your line selection was the difference. The other drivers chose the lines that required maximum suspension articulation and compression. Your line required the least compression and least articulation possible. Driver factor.

Kevin said:
Absolutely - and Subie drivers / ex-drivers are usually much better at picking the right line as those who are only experienced with larger 4WDs usually rely more on the ability of the vehicle.
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This is what got me into Subaruing, honestly. The enthusiasm of choosing limited lines to clear obstacles is almost always something to write about. Cheers.
 
Beachworm said:
All three drivers in the videos chose an extreme right hand line as the water/mud was too deep to go through the middle. This was a mistake. Hidden beneath the murk were the deep tyre ruts of large 4X4 vehicles and the left hand wheels of the trio fell into one of the ruts.
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I'm guessing no-one checked the boghole first, this is a must!
Find a big stick & poke around on the bottom. You are checking for depth & how solid/slushy the bottom is

IMO, everyone had the wrong line. Never go 2 wheels in 2 wheels out. As you attempt to drive out, the front wheel will lift & you'll lose momentum, exactly as happened. You also risk a rollover, bad enough in any situation but even worse in a boghole

The golden rule with Subarus is to take a line that levels out ruts to reduce the amount of articulation needed. For bogholes, that means go straight through the guts or go around. I bet you all would have done it easily if you'd gone straight through the middle


the critical factor in off road ability is the driver's skill in choosing the best line
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Yep, it's all about the line!

I had some fun myself on Sunday & managed to almost roll twice, once on the way down & again on the way back up. Both times due to getting 2 wheels caught in a rut that I couldn't get out of, with a better line would have been much less eventful (& spectacular lol. I'll upload videos on the weekend)

Note that if I'd been on road tyres, I would have slid completely off the track multiple times. My car would probably still be there haha
 
A few more facts to consider:-
1. All drivers took the same line.
2. All ended up with the left front wheel in a hole but only the SH managed to get the front wheel out of the hole. When its left rear wheel fell into the hole, the underbody was resting on the ground, the two front wheels were essentially airborne so only the right rear wheel had any traction. VDC put enough power to that wheel to hold the car in the position but not enough to drive it forward.
3. All 3 cars chose a slightly different line on the second attempt which is not shown in the video. The D Max and the SH drove out easily but the SG still couldn't pull itself over that final lip on the edge. It had to be recovered.
4. The depth of the hole was checked (I carry a 2 metre long cane measuring stick and it gets used on every new water hazard) and it was too deep to follow the wheel tracks of previous vehicles. The only safe line was left wheels on the centre ridge (which was not visible in the muddy water) and right wheels on dry ground. The SH used as a recovery vehicle got it right and got through on the first attempt. This was the group leader who had negotiated the hole twice previously on earlier occasions.

My questions for you are:
1. Why did the SG struggle in this context in comparison with the SH?
2. Why did the mud tyres on the SG not seem to give it an advantage?
 
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