New springs and struts - just checkin'

Thanks lads.

Havachat, I'm coming around to thinking (subject to proof next week) that the trick is to do EITHER:

Standard front springs and lift blocks (which is what I'll have)

OR:

HD springs without lift blocks (which is apparently what you have).

Both together, as you can see from the picture of my car above, gives too much lift at front, throws the suspension geometry out and (as I have discovered) the car drives like a drunk pig on skates unless you add more bits in to adjust (as NachaLuva suggests).

At the back, it's different, certainly if (like me) you carry a fair bit of weight around. I'm happy that the 1 inch block plus the raised HD Kings springs are a good answer for me.

As for shockers, I was perfectly happy with the OEM shockers when I had the OEM springs. But I like them a lot less now. I am thinking that you need to have harder shockers if you have harder springs, otherwise it floats and wallows like ... er ... like a drunk pig in mud. And I reckon I'd be happy with harder shockers if I still had the OEM springs - soft spring, taught shock valving is OK. Hard spring, sloppy shock valving is (as I have discovered) not good. I am anticipating tha the softer front springs will be a much better match for the standard-rate shocks and I'll be back to something similar to the way the car behaved ex-factory, which was fine. (But higher, of course.)
 
Hope you get it sorted, Tannin.

As I discovered with Roo2, the slightest deviation from specs for the alignment turns it into a canal barge. In fact, all my wheels were within spec, but pointing in different directions, and just this caused it to handle like a canal barge.

When I got the new tyres, I had them check the body alignment (perfect) and do a four wheel alignment - they were all over the place, but all within spec!
 
Tannin,
I have thought about your handling issues. My 2004 still has the standard oem suspension with SLS at the rear. I can bounce the front and rear by hand. On my 2002 the which has the Kings and KYBs is rock solid and pushing with all my weight on the bull bar I can hardly make it go up and down. I think that retaining the oem struts is the problem. I am sure the Excel G KYB are heavier duty than the oem KYBs. Therefore the kings are over powering the damping effect of the oem struts.
I am yet to meet someone who has changed both and is not happy. When I was younger I used to beef up the handling on my cars by fitting Monroe Rally shocks and retaining the standard springs. These were rock solid and transformed the handling. You have kind of done the opposite, hence that in my view is why you are experiencing handling issues.
Cheers
 
Gidday HC

havachat said:
Tannin,
I have thought about your handling issues. My 2004 still has the standard oem suspension with SLS at the rear. I can bounce the front and rear by hand. On my 2002 the which has the Kings and KYBs is rock solid and pushing with all my weight on the bull bar I can hardly make it go up and down. I think that retaining the oem struts is the problem. I am sure the Excel G KYB are heavier duty than the oem KYBs. Therefore the kings are over powering the damping effect of the oem struts.
I am yet to meet someone who has changed both and is not happy. When I was younger I used to beef up the handling on my cars by fitting Monroe Rally shocks and retaining the standard springs. These were rock solid and transformed the handling. You have kind of done the opposite, hence that in my view is why you are experiencing handling issues.
Cheers
Click to expand...

With completely stock all round on the SH and SG, I just observed the following:

Bouncing up and down with all my weight (about 80+ {too many} kgs) on the tow ball, neither of them would move more than about 1-2" (rough guess) at the rear.

Hard to do this at the front, but neither would move more than about 1/2-1" at the max.

Both were quite stiff, and resisted any movement at all.

SH has nearly 80,000 kms on it; SG has about 110,000 kms on it.

SG has had a full four wheel alignment done when the new tyres were fitted about 5-7,000 kms ago. All within spec after adjustment. Currently running Michelin XM2, 215/60 16.
SG has SLS.

SH has not had an alignment done. Will do this when new tyres are fitted sometime in the next 6 months or so (currently 225/55 17 Yoko GR900). However, it shows no vices, and no sign of uneven tyre wear.
Not sure if the SH has SLS. It has funny looking gas shocks with a bulbous bit at the bottom. As an XS, it is supposed to have SLS, but it's different from the set up on the SG.

No looseness or movement in the anti-sway bars at the back of either of them.

Thought that this might provide a reference point.
 
RB,
I weigh a lot more than you :rotfl:
I should also add that I tried pushing on the front of my wife's SH but the panels and inner guards are so flaming thin I thought I would bend it !!
 
Last edited:
havachat said:
I am sure the Excel G KYB are heavier duty than the oem KYBs.
Click to expand...

Just different dampening rates I believe which are more suitable to our activity and spring rates. The '99 Liberty strut bodies on my custom struts have thicker walls than KYB.

havachat said:
Therefore the kings are over powering the damping effect of the oem struts.
Click to expand...

Quite possible.
 
Out of interest, were the rear springs a RR sufix or an RRSP suffix?
 
Dulagarl, soory, no idea! Isn't there only one raised HD rear spring from Kings?

Havachat, your thoughts are paralleling mine. I reckon I'm looking at a combination of things. Not in any order:

1: Too much lift at front. Others using the same springs and lift blocks have bullbars and 2nd batteries and bash plates - my front is 100% stock, so it's lighter. My back end, though, is heavier than average: I carry a lot of gear all the time, my second battery is in the rear footwell, there is water, all sorts of stuff. In combination, I wind up with the front end higher than the back - and that tilt in itself adds to the change in weight distribution.

2: Wheel allignment problems caused by (1) and running out of adjustment short of fitting custom suspension parts.

3: Light truck tyres. A pretty minor factor 'coz I've use them before without a problem, but they are probably a bit less forgiving than road tyres would be.

4: Worn tie rod ends producing excess steering slop. I've had these replaced now and that has helped noticably - the combination of evil suspension and slop in the steering was not nice! It's still evil but it's certainly better than it was.

5: Interaction between standard shockers and HD springs. There has always been a lot of movement when I put my weight on a corner, both before and after the changes. The key, though, is that although the corner would go down a long way, it would return to the right spot and then stop - i.e., no bounce, just down and up. That's what a shocker is supposed to do, and the old car was always a pleasure to drive. Soft does not equal bad! A well-sorted soft suspension setup can be very capable indeed - ever driven a Jaguar or a Citroen? Or, come to think of it, a Range Rover. But what I've done (I reckon) is get the natural frequencies of the springs and the shockers mismatched such that the systemn as a whole is unpleasant. In particular, the side-to-side lurching, rocking motion as you pass over even quite small bumps is nasty. It reminds me of a Dastsun 120Y I once borrowed which had completely knackered shockers and - despite me being a boy racer with a rotary Mazda rocketship in those days - used to absolutely terrify me at any speed over 80km/h. The Forester is not that bad, of course, but there is a distinctly similasr flavour to its nasty habits.

I'm hanged if I'm going to shell out for new KYB shockers when I just bought new OEM ones a month ago, and in any case, that would still leave me with an unpleasantly jiggly ride verging on the harsh. I can achieve that same (low) ride quality with an ex-factory Hi-Lux! Subarus are meant to be in a different class. that's why I'm going for the factory front springs. I'm hoping that will tame the nasty handling and sort the spring/shocker mismatch, but still leave some decent ground clearance. Probably a fraction lower than I'd like, but that will be better than too high.

Thanks again to all contributors!
 
Another important thing is to have the car level (the rear at the same height as the front or a bit higher), otherwise, you may have the bad effects you have. If you're looking for a sharp turning car, you should "open" the front wheels (parallelism) and add a bit of negative camber, but for highway, for better stability, you can "close" the front wheels....well, its all about compromise !
 
Tannin said:
Dulagarl, soory, no idea! Isn't there only one raised HD rear spring from Kings?
Click to expand...

Dulagarl said:
Knowing your approach to driving and touring, I would recommend:

Raised king springs with a "SP" rated spring in the back: allows for heavier loads.

.
Click to expand...

the SP are a heavier spring, made for carrying loads in the rear. I have em, and I think Kevin has them. They would have resolved the issue of the rear sagging a bit when loaded.

As for the harshness, how far have you driven on the new springs? I ask this becuase there is always a wearing in phase to new springs, or so I am told.

It is strange that you are experiencing this problem when me, Kevin, MY04tone and others are not.

I would definitely not change the new struts! perhaps the front spring change will make a difference, but perhaps also running the springs in might also help.

Sorry to hear that this hasn't worked out to your satisfaction.
 
Yep, they are an extra heavy duty 250 ft/lb +30mm spring. I have mentioned before that they are harsh when unladen.
 
Chheers lads.

Dulagarl, no worries at all. There is lots that's right with the upgrade, and we are going to keep plugging away at it 'till everything works exactly the way I want it to. A few extra dollars and a bit of mucking about looking for the right combination for this particular car and driver is neither here nor there, not considering that I plan to do a lot more kilometres in the old girl yet. The back end is brilliant already, we just need to tweak the front up a bit. Watch this space!.
 
Are the front struts aftermarket replacements or subaru OEM replacements?

I ask as when I replaced the rear struts on my L series I went with a set of aftermarket KYB struts - I say aftermarket as the KYBs were also standard, but the difference is that the OEM units are oil filled, the aftermarket are gas filled.

I noted quite a lift in the rear with these gas filled KYBs, same spring and spring seat height as previous stock KYB struts.

Hope this sheds some light on the height of the front end... maybe.

Cheers

Bennie
 
Slipped the new front springs in today. Sadly, I had to buy "new" second-hand ones, and the wrecker would only sell them complete with struts, so that was more than $300 down the drain for parts I already had but threw away. (sob) Yes, that was dear, but what can you do? This was the only wrecker who had any, so we couldn't say "too much, I'll go elsewhere".

Anyway, it's done now, and (as expected) instead of being a bit too far up at the front and handling like a drunken pig, the old girl is now a bit too far down at the front, and first impressions are good.I knew we were going to be a bit low at the front but short of custom springs there is no way to get that perfect in-between height. Well, I could get someone to manufacture a pair of 38mm lift blocks to replace the 25mm ones I have, but let's not go there.

The key point is that we now have

(a) a more sensible ride height at the front, and, we hope, better wheel geometry and thus handling

(b) a significantly softer ride at the front end where it matters (hey - I don't sit in the back seat so I don't care about the ride there - and in fact, I haven't got a back seat - it lives in the shed and I have extra room for stuff to take on trips).

(c) a significantly better match between the shock valving and the spring rates. It floated quite horribly before (with the hard springs and the soft shockers) and really didn't drive like a Subaru at all - more like a clapped-out Hi-Lux - and I reckon that mis-match between shock valving and spring rates was probably the main cause of my problems. Hey - if the suspension system isn't keeping the rubber on the road properly, no tyre on earth is going to grip well.

I've only done three or four kilometres so far - drove it to the office and back - and we aren't going to do the wheel allignment 'till it's had a chance to settle in - next week or so. But first impressions:

1: It seemed a bit odd to be looking down at the road directly instead of peering over the too-high bonnet - that change in ride angle is quite noticable. Remarkable how much difference a single inch makes! A good change, I think, though I slightly miss the feeling of "I can drive over any obstacle" you get when it's super high.

2: Getting in was natural again. This is something you don't notice: you just get in without a thought instead of "climbing up" into your seat. It feels right now.

3: The harsh jiggling is gone. It's still sharper than it was (we still have HD springs in the back, and light truck tyres all round), but no longer objectionably harsh. You can notice the back hitting bumps harder if you think about it, but only if you think about it.

4: The weird unpleasant floating is GAWN! It feels natural again over uneven surfaces.

I reckon we are on the right track here. I've lost a bit of the extra ride height, but am still up on where I was and seem to have something approximating the original ride and handling now. Early days yet, but looking good, folks. Thanks again for all your help!



PS: I expect I'll have some nice bits to sell shortly - brand-new Kings front springs (no good for me, but well-suited if you have some weight in the front (bash plate, winch, second battery, etc.) and use harder-valved KYB shockers instead of the softer OEM ones I have.
 
Very glad you've got it sorted, just a shame it cost so much & took so long :(

So are they OEM springs?

Dont take too long on the W/A, it doesnt take long to wear out a side on tyres...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top