A New Forester for Ratbag's SWMBO

Well, Folks

It's done. SWMBO approved, and so did I. They put the acid on us, as have a "sale" on ending today, and had two other enquiries. Refused a holding deposit ... So I had to grovel and gawk today. All straight underneath. Doubt that it has ever even been off the bitumen. Some parts at the rear still looked "new" - i.e. original sub-frame paint with no layer of dirt ...

Car has not been detailed; so good to see it "raw".

Take delivery next Thursday.

This is it, here.

Got a reasonable deal on the Camry, $2,500, specially when one adds back the cost of imminent repairs of the order of $1,500~2,000 ...
The dealership had already reduced their asking price by around $2,000. So not a bad deal for a 3 y.o. car with 65K Kms on it, that had a delivery price around the $44K+ mark.

The dealer didn't realise that the Forester had about $2,200 worth of additional extras until they looked at the original order in the book wallet, BUT I had :iconwink: . The deal had been struck by then. "Too late", she cried.

No cargo barrier, but has had a Milford professionally fitted previously - mounting points are still there ...

There is no key for the Thule racks, so they will either retrieve the keys, or re-barrel them .

Drives well, with no sign of any kind of uneven wear on the Geolandar G95s, which are around 1/2~2/3 worn. Look to be OEM tyres, spare is new, and an alloy ...

Plenty of jump in the donk, even though duck-features managed to lock it in 1st to start with ...

Talked them up a grand on the Camry trade in; and also pointed out that by saying their car has "full log book records" by necessary implication meant that the normal servicing had been done, and that the 60K Kms service hadn't been ... They wanted to argue the toss about that, but agreed to do a basic service with both oil & air filter in the price. I mentioned that I didn't think that anyone would legally interpret "full log book records" to apply to a blank log book with no record of servise therein ...

MUCH running back and forth to the manager for approval of the various negotiations ... LOL. I had told the salesman at the beginning that I was a PITA ... :lol: :ebiggrin:

Will post some phone camera photos a bit later.

Need to exchange the brand new Bosch battery in the Camry for the fairly new but unknown age Century battery in Roo2. Exactly the same size/rating.

All up, the change over price was about $3K less than I expected it might end up being, with the car being both younger and with fewer Kms on it than I expected. Has the "Sports Auto" rather than the later transmission as well.

SWMBO is currently ringing around the party line telling all her friends, so obviously approved of ...

:ebiggrin: :biggrin:

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Guzzla

Sorry for being so snappy yesterday.
It was a frustrating day, and I am seriously unhappy about the possibility of ending up in a fight with BH about this.

And there is also the possibility that MS did not properly check the brakes during the end of warranty check I had done.

This will not be the first time I have fought with a car dealership (and always won ... ), but hopefully there is also a last time for everything ...

I also never get into a fight with anybody that I am not fairly certain of winning. Of course, that should always be the case with us all. If the chances are that one is going to lose, one should perhaps re-examine one's position before one steps into the ring about it!

As Heinlein said about 60 years ago, there are some occasions when one is duty-bound to fight, knowing in advance that one is going to lose. IME, these circumstances occur rather infrequently.

And BTW, just because I'm pretty good at this sort of thing doesn't mean I enjoy it. I never have, and never will. They stress me, and life's too short.

Once again, please accept my apology for being so snappy.

 

[Biesel]

Lol, you ask for peoples opinions then bite their heads off. HAHA sorry i found that amusing.

Anyway yeah Guzzla, i have considered that 1, the commodore had 245 wide tyre vs the foz 225 and that a commodore would have short suspension travel (less energy lost??). We did raise it with the dealer and were told thats a normal amount of braking response the XV loan car they give at service brakes about the same so i guess it's just subaru brakes. The brakes i guess are ok just not what we were use to.

Anyway we'll stop spamming up your thread, good luck with the dealer.

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Biesel

Lol, you ask for peoples opinions then bite their heads off. HAHA sorry i found that amusing.

Have you ever been to Uni?
It's a hard lesson in the learning (it was for me, anyway ... a very long time ago) - having "Failure to answer/read the question" written across assignments/exam papers .

I didn't actually ask for opinions about the braking ability of Foresters, I asked for opinions about the pads wearing out at 71,000 kms, and the necessity to machine the discs ...

I was also not asking about the braking of Golf GTIs (the car weighs about 100 kgs less, and has a top speed of over 150 mph - 240+ kph). If one wanted to compare the braking of this car, or the SS Holden, with any Subaru, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be with the brakes fitted to a WRX or STI ... ?

Anyway yeah Guzzla, i have considered that 1, the commodore had 245 wide tyre vs the foz 225 and that a commodore would have short suspension travel (less energy lost??). We did raise it with the dealer and were told thats a normal amount of braking response the XV loan car they give at service brakes about the same so i guess it's just subaru brakes. The brakes i guess are ok just not what we were use to.

I guess that after 19 years of driving my own Subarus, often very fast, I am very used to how these brakes work, including their "feel". I had absolute faith in the brakes in Roo1 to pull me up in very quick time, even with about a ton of trailer on behind. Never had the slightest indication of fade or any other kind of misbehaviour. I do not feel any differently about the brakes in our SG and SH. Balanced.

I have driven cars that have a more "bitey" feel at the pedal, but this generally indicated to me that the brakes were not very well designed ... Tends to indicate to me that the calipers and/or mountings are not strong enough to hold the pads parallel to the disc rotors during braking, so the pads "dig in" ...

Anyway we'll stop spamming up your thread, good luck with the dealer.

Thanks for the good wishes with the dealer. Either way it goes, one of them may well be in the poo ...

After I have MS's opinion, I will take SWMBO's SH to Ross for whatever rectification/maintenance turns out to be required.

 

[Biesel]

"
That sounds terrible! Sounds to me as if you should take that up with Subaru under warranty.

Anyone else feel that the Forester brakes are inadequate in any way? Interested to hear other's opinions on this.
"

You said that on the previous page, It's ok i know what you old blokes are like when you's mix up your meds... get nasty and forget stuff...

It's cool.

 

[Biesel]

Gidday Biesel & Thunder



Not our experience at all. The brakes on both are extremely good. If anything, a bit too good on the SH! More particularly, the directional stability of both is superb in both wet and dry (as was my '93 Impreza ... ).



That sounds terrible! Sounds to me as if you should take that up with Subaru under warranty.

Anyone else feel that the Forester brakes are inadequate in any way? Interested to hear other's opinions on this.



My thoughts too, Thunder. SWMBO has done around 5,500 kms in RonnyRoo since we got it.

As I said before, it will be interesting to see what Mentone Subaru and Ross have to say about it. I may feel compelled to communicate their respective findings to the management at Brighton Holden. After all, there is always the possibility that BH service is right, that both front and rear pads are rooted, but I have big doubts about this ...

The truth will out this coming week, I guess. Will update when I have something back from the above.

There you go mate.

 

[Biesel]

Gidday Biesel



Have you ever been to Uni?
It's a hard lesson in the learning (it was for me, anyway ... a very long time ago) - having "Failure to answer/read the question" written across assignments/exam papers .

I didn't actually ask for opinions about the braking ability of Foresters, I asked for opinions about the pads wearing out at 71,000 kms, and the necessity to machine the discs ...

I was also not asking about the braking of Golf GTIs (the car weighs about 100 kgs less, and has a top speed of over 150 mph - 240+ kph). If one wanted to compare the braking of this car, or the SS Holden, with any Subaru, perhaps a more appropriate comparison would be with the brakes fitted to a WRX or STI ... ?




I guess that after 19 years of driving my own Subarus, often very fast, I am very used to how these brakes work, including their "feel". I had absolute faith in the brakes in Roo1 to pull me up in very quick time, even with about a ton of trailer on behind. Never had the slightest indication of fade or any other kind of misbehaviour. I do not feel any differently about the brakes in our SG and SH. Balanced.

I have driven cars that have a more "bitey" feel at the pedal, but this generally indicated to me that the brakes were not very well designed ... Tends to indicate to me that the calipers and/or mountings are not strong enough to hold the pads parallel to the disc rotors during braking, so the pads "dig in" ...



Thanks for the good wishes with the dealer. Either way it goes, one of them may well be in the poo ...

After I have MS's opinion, I will take SWMBO's SH to Ross for whatever rectification/maintenance turns out to be required.

It's cool.

 

[Biesel]

Oh and for whats it is worth SS commodores in the VY have the exact same brakes as fitted to the 6cyl pov packs so i think it is a fair comparison.

 

[Ratbag]

"
It's ok i know what you old blokes are like when you's mix up your meds... get nasty and forget stuff...

It's cool.

I don't think you understand what the expression "get nasty" means IRL ... :rotfl:

Ah well, I will pass on the opportunity to teach you that. You will learn soon enough ... . I hope it doesn't hurt too much when it does happen :ebiggrin:.

 

[Biesel]

I'll pass on the opportunity to teach you humility and manners, this isn't behavour i'd expect to see from someone charged with moderating this forums... especially when you are in the wrong and have for no reason gone off at two members. I am sorry all this is taking place in your thread but your behavour is really disappointing.

I hope it doesn't hurt you when yourself IRL learn humility.

 

[Ratbag]

I learned that about 50 years ago ...

And just FYI, I asked that question in response to the complaints by Guzzla about his expressed opinions about the braking of his Forester. Ditto with yours.

My original question is what I was primarily talking about. It's called "the Universe of Discourse", or "the Domain of Discourse" in American English ...

 

[mr turbo]

EDIT.. Let all just take a big breath & get back to the brake pads wearing & machining of disks at lowish km's..END EDIT

I hope it all works out on Thursday re the brakes etc mate.

I asked for opinions about the pads wearing out at 71,000 kms, and the necessity to machine the discs ...

I had my pads (both front & rear) replaced at about 60K & also had them skimmed at the the same time. So I know how you feel

By the way, that was with 3x opinions.
1:The guy who fitted new tyres.
2:The dealer who did a major service at the time.
3:My own observation.

To say I was a I was a little off at the time would be an understatement. I know I'm pretty hard on brakes, but to only get 60K out of them & have them skimmed aswell, I was not a happy-chappy.

I've heard form a few others that the Subi rotor's are kinda softish (often need skimming) but not at a lousy 60K.

This is probably not what you want to read, but it's form a personal experience.
I can happily say that the brake pad I have on now, are having a much better/longer life span

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Mr T

I hope it all works out on Thursday re the brakes etc mate.

Thanks.

I had my pads (both front & rear) replaced at about 60K & also had them skimmed at the the same time. So I know how you feel

By the way, that was with 3x opinions.
1:The guy who fitted new tyres.
2:The dealer who did a major service at the time.
3:My own observation.

To say I was a I was a little off at the time would be an understatement. I know I'm pretty hard on brakes, but to only get 60K out of them & have them skimmed aswell, I was not a happy-chappy.

I've heard form a few others that the Subi rotor's are kinda softish (often need skimming) but not at a lousy 60K.

This is probably not what you want to read, but it's form a personal experience.
I can happily say that the brake pad I have on now, are having a much better/longer life span

Regards
Mr Turbo

It isn't, but at least the rotors don't appear to need honing.

It also explains why Ross is not recommending putting OEM pads back in the brakes. He mentioned Bosch or Bendix - IIRC, you know us SOF's - always getting our meds mixed up ... :ebiggrin: :biggrin:

I actually cannot afford the luxury of getting my meds mixed up - to do so could easily kill me ...

His exact words were along the lines of "I know you prefer OEM parts, but OEM pads in Foresters don't work too well in my opinion and experience". I trust his judgement and opinions after 12 years of honest dealing and competently performed service and repairs by him. He never had a problem with OEM parts in Roo1.

If the rotors don't need machining, Ross's quote is $420, as against $760 from BH ... a mere 81% less ...

I am quite sanguine about doing repairs and maintenance. After all, both cars are s/h. Just not so happy about being ripped off ...

When RonnyRoo needs new boots, I will have a full alignment done as I did with Roo2. When you don't know the precise history of a vehicle, it pays to be more careful than otherwise.

 

[guzzla]

No apology needed Ratbag - I was just giving some of my subjective experiences with cars I've owned and driven. Interestingly, when the Forester XT was released in 2003 "Wheels" magazine criticised it for having brakes that were not up to its performance, unlike those on the WRX running a similar engine. All Foresters get the same brakes which I think is crazy when you think about the speeds that XT engine can quickly get you to.

Back to the rear brakes wearing out early.... I just asked my brother about the brakes on his 03 Forester X and he said the rear pads were replaced at 140,000km but the front ones are still serviceable. I think it has about 160,000km on it. I have wondered if the rears can wear more quickly because they get more dust and sand thrown up on them by the front wheels? And most rear brakes are smaller than the fronts (including the Forester's) and I wonder if that puts more load on them?

 

[Ratbag]

The Verdict ...

Guilty, as charged ...

According to MS:

Standard thickness for the front pads is 8 mm. The front pads have been miked at 2.3 mm left (~29%). Wear limit is 0.22 mm, so approx 26% usable wear left. These pads should last until approx. 95,500 kms. Front rotors are standard spec at 24.39 mm thick.

Standard thickness for the rear pads is 8.5 mm. The rear pads have been miked at 2.6 mm left (~31%). Wear limit is 0.22 mm, so approx 28% usable wear left. These pads should last until approx. 98,600 kms. Rear rotors are standard spec at 10.15 mm thick.

MS would charge $630 for the entire job, including skimming approx. 1/1,000 off the rotors all round. This is around 20% less than the quote from BH ...
Ross will charge around $530 for the full job, when it needs doing in 12 to 18 months time ... This is around 30% less than BH hand in mind ...

MS recommended that the brake pads be replaced at the next 12,000 km service, or as inspected if the service is performed at time intervals rather than at mileage intervals.

I can deal with facts and the truth; but I have an aversion to being lied to and predatory pricing

I will write to the senior management at BH, and inform them of what I think of their service practises, including a letter of demand for the $70.25 that MS charged for this inspection and report (very reasonable, IMHO), plus a further $100 to compensate me for the inconvenience and two hours of my time.

 

[mr turbo]

Great to hear that you had a win Ratbag

I'd be doing more than write a letter too mate. I'd be writing a few, if you know what I mean :iconwink:
I don't want & I won't go into details here For obvious reasons :iconwink:

I'm sure you catch my drift though :iconwink:

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Mr T

One of the dealership Principals has already been in touch ...

He has indicated that he will investigate the matter when he is back at work tomorrow. Let's just say that he was not defensive ... Some offers have already been made ...

We shall see what eventuates tomorrow.

 

[Ratbag]

Further developments ...

Gidday Folks

Well, Brighton Holden are standing by their advice in the face of the evidence of the measurements from Mentone Subaru as given here, post #94 upthread. It is my understanding that Mentone Subaru is directly owned by Inchcape Ltd, the Oz distributors for Subaru.

The Brighton Holden principal has confirmed that, in their opinion, replacing brake pads on a vehicle that has done 71,000 kms when the original pads still have in excess of 25% of their usable life left is a perfectly acceptable practice to that principal. He stated that they have to be careful about these things, and that some people wear out brakes in 40,000 kms.

I pointed out that the car had already done 71,000 kms on this set of pads, and they still had in excess of 25% of their service life left, and that simple arithmetic allows one to calculate that the pad thickness left will last at least another 12,000 kms, and probably more than 24,000 kms. He could not see that, continually referring back to his "40,000 kms" argument.

I said that brakes that only last 40,000 kms may well occur, and it's why I do not buy Australian made/designed cars ... I also mentioned that this is patently not the case in the circumstances surrounding SWMBO's Forester.

I shall be contacting my solicitor about all that ...
Solicitor is on ring-back.

I have already spoken to one of my barristers yesterday, who was less than impressed, but advised me to wait and see what happened today ...

Have just spoken to my barrister again, he advised that it isn't worth fighting about $170 ... He's probably right. BUT there are more ways of skinning a dog than sucking its insides out through its ear ... .

None of our cars will ever go back to Brighton Holden again, and I suggest to people here that they assess the evidence presented above, and make up their own minds as to the acceptability of the advice I received from Brighton Holden about the brakes on RonnyRoo.

 

[Ratbag]

Reported to Consumer Affairs Victoria.

It was not an anonymous complaint.

 

[mr turbo]

It's amazing isn't it that some people just don't get it

Well done Ratbag

I hope that Consumer Affairs (Victoria) hits them with the book big time

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Mr T

There are some who will stop at nothing when in hot pursuit of a fast buck ...

When I was telling Ross what the upshot was, he stated "People rely on us to be truthful and honest". He also agreed that BH were effectively trying to frighten me into having unnecessary and expensive work done.
There are technical legal terms that apply to this kind of behaviour ...

How about the $103 for the Castrol fully synthetic oil? Shell Ultra FSO sells for around $65/5 L at full RRP? The SH takes 4 L ...