Newbie Advice Please - Forester XT, Outback or Prado

[Jason]

Hi guys, thanks for taking the time to give me your opinions. I'm looking for a vehicle later this year and was looking for some real world advice on the capabilities of the current generation Outback & Forester XT. In specific beach use here in Australia.

Budget:
Up to about $35K but for the right car I'd spend more, I'm happy to spend less than that if for example a previous generation used vehicle is more capable and reliable than a newer generation vehicle. $35K will buy me a nice Forester XT Premium or a nice Outback Gen 5 6 cylinder perhaps around 4 years old or even a little newer. Whereas I'm looking at V6 Prados & Pajeros that are 8 - 10 years old for my budget.

What do I want it for:
Primarily a daily driver, (I also have a classic Mercedes) I'd like a vehicle that can handle some beach work at places like Fraser Island, Double Island Point and Moreton Island here in Queensland. This is something I'd only do maybe two or three time a year and would always be with for lack of a better word "real 4x4's" so recovery from larger vehicles with experienced off road drivers would always be close by. We'd like to use it to go camping and perhaps tow a small trailer or even at some stage a light camper trailer, this would be mostly on road to main stream campgrounds and generally not off road. Other than that it will be like many city based SUV's and rarely venture off normal roads.
I would want to fit underbody protection of some kind and I've seen a few videos on what's out there. I don't want to modify or lift the vehicle at all. If I bought a Forester XT I'd consider a second set of wheels and tyres that are more suited to off road or beach use if that's what was recommended and simply change them out when I plan on being adventurous.
My off road experience is very minimal
I'm only interested in petrol as I don't want the hassles of modern diesels with injectors, high pressure fuel pumps, sensitive fuel filters and the dreaded DPF.

Advice I'm seeking:
- Is a Subaru as capable as a traditional 4x4 like a Prado for beach work? I know there's not much difference in ground clearance between a Forester and a Prado.
- Which is best suited to off roading, the Forester XT or the Outback?
- In regard to the Forester is the XT is it OK for off roading or is it more suited to being a semi performance orientated road based SUV or should I just save money and go for the 2.5 non turbo? Are there fragile components on the XT associated with the turbo or suspension that do not like sand or salt water?
- In regard to the outback is the 6 cylinder worth the extra cash or is there minimal real world difference between the 6 and the 4?
- How does the CVT perform off road? Like most people I hear CVT and shudder how ever I've read good things about the Subaru CVT and my mind is open.
- What are the off road essentials (other than standard recovery gear) for the type of use I'm looking at to protect my vehicle.

I love the reliability factor of the Subaru product and it's off road reputation is legendary, however I'm less than impressed with their service costs and short service intervals. In saying that I own a W126 Mercedes so I'm no stranger when it comes to managing service and maintenance costs as long as they're not too big too often.

Thanks again for your time guys I really appreciate your thoughts, advice and opinions.

Jason

 

[SquiresSquire]

- Is a Subaru as capable as a traditional 4x4 like a Prado for beach work? I know there's not much difference in ground clearance between a Forester and a Prado.

A Subaru is more capable then a Prado or Pajero for beach work, as they are typical more lighter, and the AWD system is one of the best. Make sure to swap out the stock plastic sump guard with a metal one before doing much beach work.

- Which is best suited to off roading, the Forester XT or the Outback?

Tomatoes, tomatos, they're about the same. Depends whether you want more features and cargo space (Outback) or slightly less cargo space, and better approach angles (Forester)

- In regard to the Forester is the XT is it OK for off roading or is it more suited to being a semi performance orientated road based SUV or should I just save money and go for the 2.5 non turbo? Are there fragile components on the XT associated with the turbo or suspension that do not like sand or salt water?

The Turbos are quite good for the extra grunt. General consensus is a Auto XT to save burning up the clutch, as the Low Ranges are no longer available in the late models

- What are the off road essentials (other than standard recovery gear) for the type of use I'm looking at to protect my vehicle.

Sumpguards are a must - Subaxtreme are the only manufacturers in Australia which produce a ADR & Airbag approved sumpguard.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Hey Jason,

I cannot offer Australia-specific advice, but I have done as much as anyone in the US in a modern Outback and I now have a Prado-based Toyota specialist 4x4, so I can chime in.

You must understand that they are utterly different. Neither is better or worse on the whole, H6 Outbacks and FXTs are outstanding and so is Prado. But they excel in very different ways.

Think of it this way, Subaru for fun driving experience and unbeatable light-duty versatility as well as better fuel consumption. Toyota is zero fun to drive, but has unbeatable heavy-duty versatility. Both are extremely dependable when properly maintained.

You don't need the Prado, if you don't do serious rocks and/or carry heavy and/or voluminous loads.

- Is a Subaru as capable as a traditional 4x4 like a Prado for beach work? I know there's not much difference in ground clearance between a Forester and a Prado. Subaru rocks in sand. If you do want to stay stock, you will want to see what the clearance difference is, but 2009 Subarus are decent. Even stock, you will want skid plates.
- Which is best suited to off roading, the Forester XT or the Outback?
It pains me to say it, but the FXT-totally. Why? Angles. The OB's bumpers are hopeless, lift or not. I had about 22.5-23 deg approach angle with a total of 2.5" lift. Ugh.
- In regard to the Forester is the XT is it OK for off roading or is it more suited to being a semi performance orientated road based SUV or should I just save money and go for the 2.5 non turbo? Are there fragile components on the XT associated with the turbo or suspension that do not like sand or salt water? XT for the win, always.
- In regard to the outback is the 6 cylinder worth the extra cash or is there minimal real world difference between the 6 and the 4? Totally worth the extra cash. My H6 lasted 5+ years with me. A 4 cyl would have lasted 1. I have driven a number of H4s of the same generation. Better Prado at that point.
- How does the CVT perform off road? Like most people I hear CVT and shudder how ever I've read good things about the Subaru CVT and my mind is open. A close friend has had 2 with CVT. You WILL have overheating issues on moderate climbs (inexperienced folks will find those climbs scary, so there is that). Presumably something to ask others about for beach. But the CVT in the FXT performs great. It is really fun to drive.


It is true that Toyota has twice fewer service intervals, but since you will be going offroad, you will want to change your fluids more often anyway. As for spark plugs, the FXT should be easy. The H6 Outback...not easy!

There really is no way to go wrong with a choice involving FXT, H6OB, and Prado. They are very different, though, so choose wisely. I was very conservative in my estimates as to what I want to drive and what we would be carrying, so my Outback purchase, while spot on back then, turned out to be the wrong choice in the longer term. Otoh, there are plenty of people in the US with Prado-based 4Runners like mine that really only need a Subaru.

EDIT: the Outback will be a lot more comfortable than a Forester on long drives and some folks never get used to the Forester seats. It also has a deeper cargo area vs a taller one in the Foz.

If you are going to err, err on the Subaru side: cannot go wrong with FXT or H6OB but you can easily overshoot with Prado. The FXT vs H6 question is much tougher, it really depends on one's specific wants, needs, and terrain. If you do lots of highway miles and fast tracks, Outback. If your out of town trips are mostly offroad trips in rougher terrain, Forester. In between, it gets really hard to decide.

 

[Jason]

Awesome and really helpful info thanks guys. :ebiggrin:

 

[scalman]

As for prado if you wont go trails that need lockers and biger lifts mud tires then you dont need 4wd prado. But it would go where subarus wont. If i would be living in australia i would go bigger with prado maybe tow trailer and such. But if you realy never will want go to harder trails there then you dont need prado.
Myself i never listen to someone words only, i would watch videos how those subarus and prados do trails do offroad andnfrom that i would decide for myself.

 

[Ratbag]

I've towed a two tonne horse float (including horses) almost everywhere with my somewhat modified 1968 Landcruiser.

For almost everything else, I would prefer my Forester ...

I take care that I don't roll it into a ditch. This is something that my Landcruiser would recover from better ...

 

[havachat]

You can drive an Outback on sand but the approach and departure angles can cause major issues. An Outback is an excellent touring vehicle. The Foz is for off-road. The non turbo would be my preference. A big 4x4 is good for towing I used to have one for that purpose!

 

[Ratbag]

HC, my one disagreement with your conclusions is that I find my 2006 n/a Forester a very comfortable touring car. At least as good as my Impreza was, or our Camry.

Even with my bad back and osteoarthritis problems, I find the Forester seats excellent. Mind, I do fit high quality sheep skin covers to all our cars. These dramatically improve the shock absorbing quality of the seats for me. I also have quite different driving positions around town and on the open road.

 

[scalman]

Well i sat in 3rd gen forester and in 2nd gen outback and seats with all interior on forry i didint liked much vs outback. Bu then i love that 80-90 style more . still seats was way better in outback. I think depends on person height and weight that could be diff opinions.

 

[havachat]

(I also have a classic Mercedes)

which Mercedes do you have?

 

[Jason]

I have an 89 300 SEL with 90,000km on the clock. It belonged to a Japanese family on the Gold Coast who bought it new in 1989 and kept it at their holiday appartment and only used it a couple of times a year when they came on holidays from Japan. I bought it three years ago with 75,000 km on it. It's in almost new condition. It's our daily driver but will get retired for more limited use later this year, hence the SUV/4x4 question. I had always thought I'd simply get a 2010/2012 petrol Prado as they simply do many things so well, but I've always liked Subaru and both the current gen Forester & Outback appeal to me on many levels. The Forester XT has the lions share of my interest so far.

 

[Subaru Man]

* Primarily a daily driver, (I also have a classic Mercedes) I'd like a vehicle that can handle some beach work at places like Fraser Island, Double Island Point and Moreton Island here in Queensland.

A Subaru would be perfect then.


* I'm only interested in petrol as I don't want the hassles of modern diesels with injectors, high pressure fuel pumps, sensitive fuel filters and the dreaded DPF.

If you want things to be less hassle that would also be a reason to go the non-turbo vs the XT as in places like Fraser Island you can't get premium unleaded. You would have to take extra fuel and / or octane boosters.


* Is a Subaru as capable as a traditional 4x4 like a Prado for beach work?

More so.


* Which is best suited to off roading, the Forester XT or the Outback?

Both would be fine but as mentioned elsewhere the Outback has longer overhangs which can be a problem in sand as well as other off-road conditions.


* In regard to the Forester is the XT is it OK for off roading or is it more suited to being a semi performance orientated road based SUV or should I just save money and go for the 2.5 non turbo?

Both would be fine and it depends what you want. I would love to drive an XT but my non-turbo does the job for me without any complaints from me, or the car. If you want extra performance, go the XT, If you prefer to save the money and happy with what is still a perfectly fine drive then save your money and get the n/a. I spent a week on Fraser Island in my SJ Forester with a group of Subarus including an SJ XT. We both had no problems re getting through the soft sand. The XT has more power but the non-turbo still has plenty and has a softer ride and no need to worry about premium unleaded. I was also able to fit 16 inch wheels whereas the XT was limited to 17 inch rims as a second set. I believe it is still possible to fit smaller rims to the XT but it is a more costly exercise to get Sparco wheels as apparently these will fit over the XT's larger break calipers. I am not aware of anyone having done this! I put on a set of 16 inch wheels and run 225/70/16 when off-road, compared to stock 225/60/17.


- How does the CVT perform off road? Like most people I hear CVT and shudder how ever I've read good things about the Subaru CVT and my mind is open.

People tend to give the CVT a hard time. I also have an earlier Subaru with CVT and it's not great but it's still fine for a family wagon (2013 Subuar Exiga 7 seater). However, I am hardly aware I am driving a CVT in my 2016 Forester and it performs very well off-road. It spent a week at Fraser Island and caused me no grief at all. I think that if you are happy driving an automatic transmission then the CVT will suit you just as well.

The XT CVT also had no problems at all after a week on Fraser Island.


* What are the off road essentials (other than standard recovery gear) for the type of use I'm looking at to protect my vehicle.


A sump guard is a very good idea!

 

[ignas]

Hi MAS,

I'm in a similar purchasing situation as Jason except I'm sold on the XT & it will be older though, probably 2009-11.

You WILL have overheating issues on moderate climbs (inexperienced folks will find those climbs scary, so there is that). Presumably something to ask others about for beach. But the CVT in the FXT performs great. It is really fun to drive.

I've had a Landcruiser Troopcarrier for quite a while. Have been up nearly 45 degree slopes. Not expecting an XT to do that but what do you consider a moderate slope? Is overheating of a CVT a problem/cause damage? If in the middle of a slope do you just wait a bit for it to cool down & continue?

I don't believe the older Forester XT had CVT anyway but I was wondering if the X Mode is available of later models & does it make a decent difference to of road & climbing abilities?

I've heard that some Subies will peater out on steeper climbs. Is this the result of overheating of the CVT or lack of power/low range? I will get an auto, so I'm assuming if the track isn't too rocky/bumpy one could just use low gear & power up a steep slope with the XT. I'm assuming I could but an XT without CVT but maybe not with X Mode. Need to do some research on when these features appeared & disappeared.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Hi MAS,

I'm in a similar purchasing situation as Jason except I'm sold on the XT & it will be older though, probably 2009-11.

.

Well, I am no expert and what I know is more applicable to the US. I was referring to trails rated moderate in the most popular 4x4 guides for the state of Colorado. We are talking elevation of 3,000-4,000 meters. There only turbo and six cylinder Subarus cope with any more or less steep slopes.

The picture is one example, the slope beyond the dirt bike, not what is right in front of me. I know an XV with a magazine driver made it up that one, but barely. I have seen an H4 CVT barely make it up a less steep looking slope. At that altitude an n/a engine loses about 30% of its hp at sea level, so the H4 literally runs out of horses. Well, not literally! And without low range...

Some climbs in the area have sections of about 30% and sustained, miles long ascents of 15sh %. Where all Subaru transmissions I know get hot is on the latter type of climbs. The H6's 5 EAT would normally go to about 250F on such climbs, to I managed to get into the 260s on a faster climb of this type. Here in the heat of AZ, 230F is a normal ATF temp on freeway climbs in summer (not that 230 is "normal" in absolute terms).

As for downhill, I used Hawk HPS 5.0 pads which were stellar while the stock pads felt dangerous to me on trails like those. Again, that is really specific to Colorado though the stock pads can also be overworked on very long always-on-the-brake flatish trails.

The 4R I now have is better at some things and the H6 OB I had was better at others. My current priorities being cargo space and offroad, the 4R wins. But the OB was the right tool when we needed less space and drove dirt roads only. Certainly, a turbo Subaru will be a far nicer vehicle to drive on road (though my Toyota is much more comfy than a Forester on long trips).

 

[scalman]

Well newer prados interior and comfort is on another level from subaru. Amazing suspension for bad roads.

 

[Beachworm]

Seeing my user name is Beachworm, you could conclude I know a little bit about beach driving and seeing I come from Brisbane, I have driven on the beaches you mention (and others) so this is my two cents worth.

I would (and did) choose a Forester over an Outback for beach work for the reasons others have mentioned. Once you get off the hard sand into the soft stuff, going up hill, like the exits from Bribie Island or Noosa North, you will impact under the front. The Outback will hit before the Forester. Dragging your undercarriage causes loss of momentum and this is a killer in soft sand.

I chose a naturally aspirated 2.5 SH because the turbo chews through fuel on sand and the extra power is only an advantage if you want to do drag racing up sand dunes. The reason I chose an SH is because an auto is better on sand unless you want to drive everywhere in low gear and I have driven an SJ with a variable transmission and didn't like it one bit.

I found that the Forester needed a bit more clearance (hence a 50mm lift) to make the approach to Bribie Island beach easier and to negotiate the track across the middle of Moreton island where there are deep wheel ruts. You will find exactly the same issue with a Prado.

I've done a bit of towing with the Foz. The heaviest was a tandem trailer loaded with furniture on the 1500Kg limit from Lismore to Brisbane with no issues though I did stay in the left lane at 90.

I find the leather seats on my Foz to be the most comfortable of any car I've had (and I've had more than 30). I can drive 500K straight without my back playing up where the Mitsubishi I had prior I could hardly straighten up after a drive from Brisbane to the Gold Coast.

All the best with your selection.

 

[Rally]

There are distinct limits with what you can achieve with an auto SH XT, and these limits may be lower than what you are expecting. This is a steep climb, but not the steepest I have come across. The combination of a steep incline and far from smooth loose surface is very testing for a Subaru. Although a recent video, being new you may not have seen it. By way of contrast, my turbo SG with low range and rear and centre diff locks made it up easily. [ame="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tmU6_Jf_76g"]Alex Video 1 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[ignas]

Yes, a good example of traction loss. Hard to see the exact angle of incline but it appears it's a grip issue. Too much air and not enough tread & a power issue if it gets steeper.

Do any Subies run Mud Terrain tyres. I'm considering them as they are now much quieter than the older ones. I love them on my Troopy. I've often stayed in 2WD & gently applied power without wheel spin, something I couldn't do as frequently with ATs. Very handy as I now don't have to get out of the truck to lock the front hubs as often.

Sorry, I'm a bit of a dinosaur when it come to tech. A question for anyone out there, Muddies will have less traction on wet slippery bitumen roads, wouldn't Anti Lock Braking Brakes, Traction Control & all these new systems counter that?

Rally, you state "rear and centre diff locks made it up easily". Are they the same as the lockers on the heavier 4WDs L/cruisers, L/rovers etc. Can they be installed on newer Foz's like the SH? If so, who sells them, installs them, any links to threads on this topic etc.? It's not like we can go to an ARB store for advice.

Thanks in advance

 

[Kevin]

A question for anyone out there, Muddies will have less traction on wet slippery bitumen roads, wouldn't Anti Lock Braking Brakes, Traction Control & all these new systems counter that?

Yes they do. I run BFG muddies on my Triton and in AWD mode (AKA High Range 4WD) they handle just fine. Not as nimble as a Subie of course but very good for a ute.

Rally, you state "rear and centre diff locks made it up easily". Are they the same as the lockers on the heavier 4WDs L/cruisers, L/rovers etc. Can they be installed on newer Foz's like the SH? If so, who sells them, installs them, any links to threads on this topic etc.? It's not like we can go to an ARB store for advice.

Yes there are threads here:
https://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=7468
https://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=2091

 

[Beachworm]

I think you'll find that traction control and stability control do not improve wet weather grip. They simply reduce the risk of losing it completely. The amount of grip you get is totally dependent on the amount of rubber in contact with the road, stickiness of tyre compound and ability to remove water from under the tread, all of which are not strong points of mud tyres. I have found since putting good quality AT tyres on my SH Foz that there is less grip in the wet than I had with good road tyres. It tends to understeer more and doesn't like too much power before the apex.