What factors make Off Road Ability?

[Ben Up North]

Except on an offroad forum :iconwink:

I read an article some years back (probably around the 2000's or just before) about a couple of retired geezers that had fitted off road tyres to a Roller and were going to take it around Australia. Don't know how far they got..

 

[scalman]

even suzuki jimny can go with big boys if he is made well.. so much mud mud mud mud
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcNxIjUHEfc"]??????? ??????? ?? ?????????????? ?????????????. ???????? ????? ???????. - YouTube[/ame]
thats why people need and build different cars for like russians forests and australians. because totally different nature
i look at some cars and i think that everything is so easy . lit jimny put lockers put dirt tires . thats all you need to do. as on other cars too. well snorkel as well. but main thing is same on all 4wd that are made for heavy offroad. and for me its becoming not so interesting as cars becoming more similar. lift /locker/mud tires. so then only engine power will decide how fast you could swim in that mud. Because thats not showing how good one car model is or other but just how much one put money in car vs others. lighter shorter and a lot lifted nissan patrol of course will just swim anywhere.
and what i like about subarus because they just go as they are. not much is needed for them. and then they go very good on road or they do very nice donuts in field and next thing you flying with it on road. and then 20 km later maybe you again in some forest road in mud or deep water or sand. you never know. but i see my outback as i dont need to plan anything before i go . I can just go , i see track i go there

 

[Kevin]

I read an article some years back (probably around the 2000's or just before) about a couple of retired geezers that had fitted off road tyres to a Roller and were going to take it around Australia. Don't know how far they got..

I'm sure they did really well and probably in lots of comfort! There was the story about the Queensland grazier who used to carry his sheep around in the back of the Roller, or maybe it was a Bentley?

 

[havachat]

Back in the early 1970's my parents had a friend who had the farm Rolls for the paddock bomb and the town Rolls for driving into town. I always remember Bill driving across a paddock and hitting something and in response to my gasp he said "don't worry it's only the farm Rolls"!!

 

[Rally]

On the topic of Range Rovers, when I was a kid not long after the Range Rovers came out (early/mid '70s?) some friends of ours bought one.
They were travelling outback SA/NT and lost a trailer behind it. The trailer literally rattled to bits. Apparently they didn't even realise until the last of it was out of view behind them.

These days with GPS that would be far less likely.

 

[Rally]

I read an article some years back (probably around the 2000's or just before) about a couple of retired geezers that had fitted off road tyres to a Roller and were going to take it around Australia. Don't know how far they got..

I saw a Roller up Mudgee way with a bull bar.

 

[scalman]

put aside subaru i was allways curious what tesla X electric power could do offroad. even with max lift its lacking in some clearance but electric 4wd car with so much torque should be just amazing offroad no ? maybe tesla just dont wanna make systems better for offroading but i think it would be great. just give that tesla X more lift put better tires and if some could make software to make 4wd systems act better would be nice. i mean tesla now doing all updates online. they could make like software update for offroad.

couple tests
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlSv9fGT1Fk"]Tesla vs Hummer on steep hill - YouTube[/ame]
its amazing how good it drove up that hill. i mean Tesla made some good stuff to that traction control there. big heavy hummer just failed to do same.

that dude made lots of videos of tesla x testing offroading in all places that tesla cars should not be
he tested sleeping in car at -17 C and many other things. i mean its great car in all. and capable. it has 6'' clearance on normal and 7.3'' on highest setting.

snow / mud test. i would stuck there too
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie79Jk9Ob2s&t=301s"]Tesla Model X winter off-roading - YouTube[/ame]

 

[havachat]

No sure I would want to do a water crossing though with DC electricity!

 

[scalman]

it can be done sealed, as some nissan model i think battery section is very nice sealed . if tesla would want to make 4x4 version i think they could make amazing capable car. but not all go water crossing. i wouldnt find place where i would need cross water near me. like in need and not just go into lake and then complane . imagine all that torque crawling rocks and such if traction control or lockers done right it could be beast of a car.

 

[Kevin]

If I'm going electric I'll have one of these please:

https://www.siemens.com/innovation/...tric-mobility-world-s-largest-dump-truck.html

 

[scalman]

yh you not going far with it i think. its just wont fit anywhere hahaha.
i remember when tesla showed semi truck first time they showed some concept what if they would make truck from it

that thing would be cool. just smaller maybe and more lift . and black. it would stalk you in forest without any sound, like animal just braking branches and sneeking behind you ... haha

they made wrangler electric and its water crossing no prob because no engine in front so no worries about anything.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6eIPdblAfU"]Jeep JK Wrangler Electric Vehicle Conversion Extreme Offroad - YouTube[/ame]

it would just crawl like noone else. if they could make this with 4 motors in hubs and no transmission whatsoever . tesla made model 3 cheap car allready. what if they could make model 3 4wd offroad version of it cheap too. i think that would turn some petrolhead heads to that side. shame Elon Musk not into 4wd fun stuff.

 

[Ben Up North]

if they could make this with 4 motors in hubs and no transmission whatsoever

Big problem with putting the motors in the hubs (something I'd always been interested in myself, from my cycling background) is the weight, and very little cushioning - the motors get the most of any bumps in the road.
Much better off putting the motors where the front and rear diffs are on a standard vehicle, as then the suspension takes the bumps, and you don't have the weight in the wheels.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

A plug-in Wrangler is due in 2020. Sounds like best of both worlds to me but, realistically, it will be 2023 before that model has proven itself--if it ever proves itself reliable enough.

 

[scalman]

Yes everyone at last following what elon musk started . im really amazed how we needed just one man to change all that . before everyone was laughing on nissan electric freek car and now everyone making one or will be making in future.
Yes for offroad maybe we need some transmission with electric motors still but that motor cant just hang as diff i mean it could be easily damaged there. Duno where they put those motors in those wranglers on video but thats just fine as it is there i think. Just not so eficient because it must rotate all that transmission. And without it we could get more milage. Put 4 small motors near wheels or even make new model wheeels that have those motors like inside rim . then you can make all flex that you need for offroading

 

[Ben Up North]

Put 4 small motors near wheels or even make new model wheeels that have those motors like inside rim . then you can make all flex that you need for offroading

You still have the problem of constant shocks (physical not electircal) and bumps to the motors as there is no suspension to absorb the bumps.

I love the idea, have been considering a hub motor for many years (One of our universities has designed a very good hub motor) but a pushbike even powered, is a lot slower than a car, and thus the bumps aren't so fierce.
From my 'research' (lots of googling) the reason that car manufacturers aren't putting motors in the hubs is for precisely this reason.

 

[scalman]

i guess good old axles ares till best option for offroad as tesla using now. simple method motor as diff and axles from it.
in hubs could work maybe something like this. if its tottaly sealed like could go under water and such

or

but i guess that not cheap and not very durable.
but it would be amazing because when you dont have diff's or axles at all you could do stuff like that

but really so many different meaning of off road there are. for some offroading is rock climbing for others its maybe mud swiming , and so on. for others offroading is simple driving some harder roads to camp maybe or just test some tracks there. and for some extreme offroading you need specially made c ar for that and its not good then for nothing else really. for me subaru is best for what it does well , not rocks crawling or sinking in mud or water and then fixing car after every trip buying new parts and such.
biggest enemy in offroading is weight. and so many people don't think about it until they got stuck and then blame car for it. its soeasy go on top od slippery stuff for light subaru and so hard do same for some land cruiser 4t truck.

i remember when i first saw this video i was like : wut no way !! that suspension
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM0qmMb3sCg"]Toyo Tires: BJ Baldwin's Recoil 3 - Sasquatch Hunter - YouTube[/ame]

about subarus offroad would be nice to see more videos people do with them. my car is pretty capable , and it was just some 1.5k +550 tires +almost free lift. but thats not even cheapest solution. i mean just buy older forester or even lighter impreza, lift it put bigger tires and you rocking for even half price. but then you just have active AWD no traction control so less capability out there. but older models have fixed 1st gear which locks at least center there. its best it could do right there. so older models but with some traction control models must be cheapest and with pretty good capability. and comfy same time. and its not fare campare it to some moded cars that only locker and lift cost more then my car . so i see advantages in cars without mods as they are and what they can do.

so if you 4runner with open diffs and no traction control, or any other similar car with open diffs you not going very far no matter how much money you put in car , the more stuff you put inside car for reasons you just made it worse , you made it heavier.

so then put some lockers its your only way to be able to drive that car anywhere at all

and those are not cheap cars to begin with+ all mods and lifts and lockers. plus all those boxes in trunk as furniture . its just getting worse for offroading.
so if you have more money and thinking in front and for comfort and capability you thinking about infamous land cruiser with traction control and/or lockers

or if you dont have spare 40k , you can have something similar for about 1.5k only

thing is there that i can buy grand cherokee about same year 2000-2004 with pretty good traction control with quadra drive. well for little more about 2-3k. but that was tempting for me before i chose outback. its very much capable offroad without any mods , and with them it can become beast
but then its not normal road car for driving on road its more like going on waves with boat very comfy and very soft .
subaru outback even lifted slightly still drives like legacy on road.
but for my cheap off roader i would go for grand cherokee i think.

for me thats how i see my offroading as i live here at least with money i have. all those nissans and toyotas just cost so much even old cars, like really old ones where you sit on wooden chairs inside. joke lol , but similar.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Great post, Scalman!

In the US, for harder off-roading, it is all down to two SUVs: Wrangler and Toyota 4Runner; the rest are all pickups. Then Subaru for lighter duty. Everything else is gone or degenerated or untrustworthy or just out of its element.

The 200-series USDM Land Cruiser is a shadow of its former self.
Ditto for the Lexus version of the Prado.
The Land Rover Discovery looks great, but, price aside, LR reliability makes Jeep's look stellar.
Speaking of which, the current Grand Cherokee's off-road versions are superb on paper, but they are about as common on trail as Subarus, which is to say practically non-existent. And chances the GC leaves you stranded are way, way higher.

For lighter duty, there are many Subaru rivals on paper, but none of them can really compete in practice.

When it comes to actual use, only the Wrangler could exist on the wallets of off-roaders. Even the vast majority of 4Runners never see more than a dirt road, if that.

And so there is a good reason why Subaru does not even bother offering any off-road package. A stock Subaru can do what the enormous majority of people actually need, the rest is Wrangler/truck country and a small minority of folks who want to go places AND carry stuff, AND/OR want superior reliability AND/OR just do not like Wranglers; these buy 4Runners or Nissan Xterras of the right trim (production ended in 2015) or 100-series Land Cruisers (ended 2007).

A good way to quickly understand the US market is to check out the 4Wheel Parts website, which is a national chain. They cover Jeeps and trucks completely. But you cannot even buy 4Runner skid plates there. They might sell you a battery that fits a Subaru.

 

[scalman]

Yes wranglers are way to go for offroading. Just too small for like overlanding specially in huge places like australia or US, others.unless it would tow some camper trailer . I allways watched wrangler videos and was amazed like how good they are at stuff they can do. Not too big not too small and not too expencive.
But then very similar capabilitys just much cheaper are older grand cherokees. And jeep really making new mods even better , even simple suv class jeep they making with lockers and low gears. Like new wrangler has lowest gears ever.
But not just famous wranglers are good from jeep. Small compass trailhawk could do offroading pretty good too. I think better then new subaru xv with x mode.
Looks like jeep guys are really care to give people offroady worthy cars even if they are small suv

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Eh, not really.

Renegade TH cannot climb, Cherokee TH overheats in sand, and the air suspension of the Grand Cherokee TH is known to give up and drop suddenly to park exactly when you need it most.

The XJ Cherokee and the old Grand Cherokees were beast with exceptional potential but their successors are unreliable street vehicles with off-road looks.

If you want a Jeep, get a Jeep (i.e. Wrangler). It comes with reliability concerns but there is nothing like it. It is like an STi, not everyone's cup of tea, but something unique, special, that will put a big grin on your face.

Or one can get a turbo Forester as the most practical cross-over of STi and Wrangler abilities! The OB is much more comfortable than a Forester, but the latter is better off-road by some measure due to the angles advantage.

I think you got a great car, hope it serves you well for years to come! Your trans-Europe trips are fantastic.

 

[scalman]

Well jeep forums says about wj different things. You cancfix some road keeping problems easy and can have good offroader just not with diesel engine. Our people take 4.0 or 4.7 petrols and put lpg in them, eats about 20l on 100km .
My car have great transmission but rusty rear part , i tried to fix some stuff and will try do something about other stuff but not all can be welded or changed there. But sure i love my car .