Corner Country 2014 Tyre discussion

^ Gidday V

At last, some sensible thoughts ... :poke: :iconwink:.
Hard to disagree with any of what you have written - a good, and thoughtful contribution, IMO.

Generally, I have had a good run out of Michelins over many years. Back in the early 1960s they had a bad reputation for weak side walls. By the time I was buying my own tyres, that appears to have been fixed.

Probably the best road tyre I have ever driven on were Avon. Expensive; lasted very well. However, the guy importing them treated it as a hobby ...

Have driven on heaps of other tyres, both great and rubbish. Way back then, some tyres were notorious for terrific handling and really, really poor tyre life. Pirelli and Dunlop spring readily to mind ...

These days, standards are far higher all round. My main advice to people is to buy tyres that suit their needs, and avoid the real cheapy, no-name brands. That's about it. The Bridgestone Turanza GR90 tyres on my Impreza were probably as good a tyre as any I've ever driven on, yet not overly expensive with a good reputation for tyre life.

Have your wheels aligned and the tyres fitted and balanced by someone with a reputation to protect ...

BTW, I must have had at least 20-30 punctures in my life. Many of them caused by builders who were careless as to where they threw bent nails ... but plenty of other causes as well. A lot of that is down to chance alone, unless one is the sort of driver who either doesn't know or doesn't care about these things. IME, these people tend to break everything they ever use or own ...
 
ateday said:
I`ve tried Coopers, Wouldn`t touch them ever again..
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After a torn tyre I went into a regional centre to get a replacement - "Coopers" they said, "them's for city folks" :lol:
 
NachaLuva said:
people think you can get great grip AND great tyre wear...you can't! Its not possible. If you wish to redesign the laws of physics however lol... :lol:
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I would've gone along with this basic idea 100% too until 3 sets of Bridgestone RE001 and 002 Adrenalins proved me wrong. They reinforced their reputation of being tyre of choice for fantastic sealed road grip, especially in the wet and then confounded me by seeming to not wear out.

I thought it must have been the Forester itself that was being easy on tyres because it used to wear them all so evenly and maintained correct wheel alignment. The first 2 sets of RE001's lasted 60 - 65,000km and the 3rd set of RE002's were removed after 70,000km and still had around 10,000km left on them. I have kept the best 2 as spares in my shed. On the 35 years of cars before this I thought getting 50,000km from a set of tyres was great.

The crazy thing is those Adrenalins were not terrible on dirt and I only ever lost one - I crushed the sidewall on a back one causing a slow leak on a rock when leaving Lake Nuga Nuga in the Arcadia Valley in central QLD. The second set of RE001's survived the trip to Cameron Corner and later the 650km across the Gibb River Rd in the Kimberleys. The rubber on those Adrenalins always felt so hard and the sidewalls stiff yet wet road grip was eye popping. They were crap in mud though.

Does anyone know of a Michelin off road tyre called the Agilis? I recently read an article where a Mazda MX5 sports car was equipped with them mounted on 17" Mazda Tribute wheels for a trip to the tip of Cape York and back. They said Mazda chose them for their all round ability. I have checked their web site and see they are available in 215/65 16" size for $300.
 
Tyres.
I guess the bottom line is that they are the only thing holding you to the road so grip is probably the most important thing. Like ALL compromises a balance is struck between grip and wear life. As NL says cost is insignificant compared to fuel and parts and a life, yours or someone elses.
In about 100000 kms with Pirelli STR Scorpions, one and a bit sets, no longer obtainable I think, I have had good wear life, no punctures, and they grip well, but I drive fairly conservatively. A good compromise in my opinion.
I do know the original Geolander 900`s seemed to self puncture and went flat at the sight of a dirt road as well as being noisy and rapid wearing.
All is subjective and relative.
 
Perhaps something usefull to focus on would be to ask yourself how you can get the most from your next set of tyres. Get the alignment done at a pro suspension shop, it might cost 150-200 but it'll be worth it. Maybe mention poor tyre life so they check over your suspension components and bushes and maybe do some preventative maintenance, reducing the risk of something failing early in the life of your new tyres. Are the shocks on the way out? Keep an eye on them and replace when and if necessary. Experiment with tyre pressure as your perelli's wear out, keeping in mind your tyre placard will have the fronts 2-4 psi higher than the rear. That difference increases with load. It's worth doing it can improve handling (or more realistically feel).

I'd just say that personally tyre life is at the bottom of the list for me, 1 above that is how much they cost. How a tyre performs for me on and offroad is what I look for, how long they last is an after thought. My Coopers were 230ish per tyre and if I get more than 60,000 I'll be happy with them, they're doing an awesome job for me offroad. The 225 width and extra sidewall of a 15" rim could have a lot to do with that.

Next tyre for me I was considering a 235/60R16 Geolanders AT/S. Not a fan of the 15" rim look and the 235 should compensate for that a little, and look really fat :)
 
Venom said:
I'd just say that personally tyre life is at the bottom of the list for me, 1 above that is how much they cost.
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Yep, their primary job IMHO is to stick to the road and keep me safe. So my order is very much yours:

1. Performance. Not in the sense of "High performance", just down-to-earth grip/handling wet and dry - and not shabby on dirt roads.

2. Noise. I absolutely HATE tyres that seem to find road noise out of nowhere. It may not bug some people but it drives me loopy.

3. Price.

4. Longevity, a bad last. If they don't do #1 well, it matters not at all that they'll last forever.

Speaking of that, SWMBO's 03 Corolla came with Dunlop crap. Bitc#ed about the road noise (yes, I'm hypersensitive) and the dealer replaced the fronts with Bridgies. Two more pairs and 170,000 on the clock, the back Duncraps were still showing more than half tread, wearing like steel. All this while the road noise had been building to an almost unbearable (for me) level. One day I had the back wheels jacked up and noticed that the height of the tread blocks varied around the tyre in a random manner. Replaced them and the fronts with some new Bridgies and the car was quiet as a mouse. If only I had worked that out years earlier ...
 
Tweaksta said:
All I can conclude from all of this is that if Michelin made A/Ts out of the same compound as the XMs they would be the perfect tyre for me.
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Do you have the Michelin Latitude Cross down under ? It seems to be a very good AT tire but I don't like the look of it...
 
Yes, we get them here. Load Index is 98, speed rating is T for about $269 each.

Sure as hell are ugly though! :p
 
No wonder they're cross! :iconwink:
 
I don't mind the look, bit like a purpose built rally tyre, bit like this:
https://www.sportandtyres.com/cikk.php?id=198

Zippo, you would like how quiet these claim to be:


  • Off-road, the traction of an All-terrain tyre

  • The Mud Catcher tread pattern delivers more grip on any kind of surfaces, such as wet grass, dirt roads and mud.
  • On the highway, the driving comfort off an on-road tyre

    MICHELIN Latitude Cross is quieter than the previous generation1 and as quiet as MICHELIN Latitude Tour HP2, designed for 90% on-road use.
  • With exceptional mileage

    The Terrain-Proof tread compound is highly resistant to gravel abrasion to provide longer mileage in multi-purpose use and with loaded vehicles.


Note though that its rated 10% offroad so the same as a HT
 
BTW, thought I should clarify ratings...

Road tyre - rated 100% onroad use although can still be used on sand & good gravel roads

HT - Highway Terrain. Rated 90% onroad, 10% offroad. Good for those who do mostlr sealed road driving with some gravel, eg country folks with lots of unsealed but good condition roads. Also good for sand.

AT - All Terrain. Rated 70% onroad 30% offroad. Good for those who do more offroad work incl shallow mud, clay, rockys tracks, etc. Excellent on gravel roads. Tends to be more rugged construction & chip resistant tread blocks. Also good in sand but may not bag out as much as an HT

MT - Mud Terrain. Rated 20% onroad 80% offroad. MUD! Big lugs with less contact area. Pretty usless onroad with very poor grip on wet sealed roads. Dangerous! Excellent grip on clay and deep mud, also rocky tracks. ATs better on gravel roads. Tough construction, usually LT. Chip resistant tread blocks. Not very good in sand as it doesnt bag out well & the aggressive tread tends to dig holes
 
OK< I've done some Googling lol. Seems those figures are slightly wrong according to 2 sites...

From https://www.outbackcrossing.com.au/FourWheelDrive/Truth_About_4WD_Tyres.shtml


"Here's a rough guide to tyre types

(H/T) Highway Terrain = 90% Road & 10% Off-Road
(A/T) All Terrain = 60% Road & 40% Off-Road
(M/T) Mud Terrain = 15% Road & 85% Off-Road"

Also
https://www.toughtoys.com.au/4wd-touring/4x4-tyres/

As you can see from both, MTs are pretty useless onroad.

2 of my pet hates are seeing cars with bald tyres or muddies driving around town. I know they have no grip in the wet & I keep an eye on them, knowing in all likelihood I will have to take evasive action to avoid an accident when they inevitably lose traction. I have done this multiple times now, most notably on the freeway when the ****head fourbie with P plates behind me locked up ALL 4 mud tyres & skidded sideways towards me! :eek::shake::furious::yell:
 
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NachaLuva said:
BTW, thought I should clarify ratings...
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Nice find!

I do not personally know if I have seen much difference in 4-10 inches of mud between street and AT.

I am very curious about the 10% off-road for the HT. Even good looking thread-wise HTs like the Toyo Open Country get poor reviews for off-pavement driving. They do look more aggressive than street but I wonder if they really make any difference off-pavement particularly on a vehicle with outstanding AWD.

I think that MTs do not fit a Subaru since even a heavily modified Subaru is not a rock-crawler or a deep mud machine. I agree that MTs are useless on-road. That is why they fit the Wrangler and the FJ Cruiser so well--those vehicles are great toys, but ridiculous on-road, no matter their tires, LOL.

I have found that the Toyo Open Country AT and the Geolander AT-S allowed the B9 and the OB, respectively, to make the most of their AWD. Absolutely no comparison with street tires...

But I am very curious to hear about Subaru HT experiences.
 
Good article (the outbackcrossing one)...interesting points about wheel width and fatties there (as well as white lettering :ebiggrin:).

When you see so many other people's set-ups, and you realise all the products that are available, it can be hard to differentiate between what's a fad and a genuine good product sometimes.

I do about 25-30% offroad so I should be happy with HT but I would prefer AT as a more radical departure from the road tyres I've been using for ever.

I have been googling the Michelin Latitude Crosses discussed and all reports sound pretty good. In all honesty, they would probably look fine on the car - chunkier than my roadies anyway! Once they get a bit of filth on them they'll look sweet. As Nacha said, they are only rated 10% offroad which is a bit of a bummer for a $269 tyre.

Since that's a painful outlay when you multiply it by 6 rims, the BFGs at $179 (@ Bob Jane) each are a massive saving for a tyre that seems to be just as well received as the Michelins, the only downside being they are 70 profile (would prefer 65s).....

So essentially I have l learnt from this discussion to stay away from flashy marketing, listen to what everyone has to say, take into account the myriad of variables, don't be fooled by big white sidewall lettering and don't buy Dunlop. It seems though, that I can probably deduce that the BF Goodrich All Terrain is a widely accepted and recommended favourite.

Now, dare I mention the words "Continental ContiCrossContact A/T"?
 
NachaLuva said:
As you can see from both, MTs are pretty useless onroad.
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The reality that came to me fifty years ago as a young hoon was that every tyre pattern/compound/construction is a compromise. Horses for courses. Having worn out a 50% set of B7+ crossplies that came on my first car (an FC Oldhen) in 5000 miles, I moved to Pirellis. To say cheese and chalk is an understatement - mainly a radial vs cross-ply thing, but the smellies went around corners. Since then with a long involvement in rallying I have seen trends change from fat-as to M&S-regardless and all over the place. The one lesson in all that is that there simply ISN'T a tyre that is great on the highway (wet and dry) and with M&S capability.

On my recent trip up the GCR and Mereenie Loop my Foz ran a set of Yokie BluEarth road tyres (if anyone wants to know why, feel free to ask). Speed wasn't compromised on their account, the only thing that slowed us down were some severe corros and camels. If you look at them now there's hardly any sign - even to the experienced eye - that they have been off the black stuff. And no, I DON"T "air down" - IMNSHO that is a disaster in the making.

Re the linked products, I don't believe anything with the tread pattern shown is going to be quiet on the blacktop, nor would I expect decent highway wet grip after the first 1000kms. And I wouldn't expect any usable tread after 5000km.

It is definitely a case of horses for courses. Nothing that pulls a brewery cart will be starting at Flemington on Tuesday. As I do 90% on black stuff, my tyres will be chosen (as per my 1-4 prioritisation) for that duty. For the remaining 10% I need to decide if the terrain warrants an alternate tyre, and if so I'll set up a second set of wheels.
 
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The outbackcrossing article was fun.

"Basically a modern 4WD will go anywhere you can walk. If you are able to walk up a steep, snotty, slippery rock 500 metres upwards...."

LOL, it is proven from experience that my OB with AT tires can go where my kids cannot and where I have more trouble walking (hiking shoes) than the OB rolling forward.

Btw, any tire can get a grip on slickrock, the prevalent rock when off-roading in the SW USA. The issue is the dirt over the rock.
 
MiddleAgeSubie said:
Btw, any tire can get a grip on slickrock, the prevalent rock when off-roading in the SW USA. The issue is the dirt over the rock.
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Yep totally agree, it acts like ball bearings on the rock

Tweaksta said:
Good article (the outbackcrossing one)...interesting points about wheel width and fatties there (as well as white lettering :ebiggrin:).
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"Of course, strong sidewalls help to hold up that Big White Lettering" :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

the BFGs at $179 (@ Bob Jane) each are a massive saving for a tyre that seems to be just as well received as the Michelins, the only downside being they are 70 profile (would prefer 65s).....
....BF Goodrich All Terrain is a widely accepted and recommended favourite.
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You can't go wrong with BFGs & that price is sensational! I'd jump on it :monkeydance:

Now, dare I mention the words "Continental ContiCrossContact A/T"?
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One review highly recommended them but..." In the wet I have not found any fault wit h them except the nav keeps trying to spin em."

Why would you recommend a tyre that a Navara makes them lose traction?

I think you can do much better...
 
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