Optimum mild lift for a IV gen OB

Shafer and WR have been maintained and are now open!
I did Shafer down to potash after work this afternoon. From exiting hwy 313 onto the Shafer trail (circa 1415hrs) to pulling onto the paved part of the Potash rd by the boat ramp (circa 1518hrs) was about an hour. I wasn't going very slowly as I had kids to get from daycare and wasn't sure how long it would take, but knowing Shafer @ 313 to intersection to go down to the Potash rd was 4 miles then the potash rd from there to pavement is 32mi, I figured I was relatively okay with time but still erred with caution rather than sightseeing.

MAS, you have an email with this track. :)
 
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UPDATE:

Ok, so I installed 0.5 inch Primitive spacers a month or so ago. Dealer said spacers had been a breeze to install, no issues with alignment, made rear wheels move about 1/4 of an inch forward. I knew from Primitive that 0.75 spacers would have been borderline for alignment and did not dare do those.

Thus: Primitive skid plates (full suite), Primitive 0.5" spacers, and Geolander AT-S stock size. Only further mod that I am seriously considering is 225-65-17s instead of 225-60-17s.

Am I happy?

No on-road negatives that I can notice. This was very important to me.

I definitely felt the 0.5 decrease of ground clearance with skid plates and then the return to stock clearance. In the U.S. southwest every 0.5 inch helps, at least when your starting point is a limiting 8.7.

Because of the rocks on many of the trails of interest to me, I can definitely use another 0.5 and more sidewall but my current setup has proven just fine for some quite serious stuff around here (AZ terrain is as tough as it gets: really rocky, really slippery, and really hilly at once).

All in all, while I wish I had x-mode, too, I am very pleased with what the car was able to do with mild modifications.
 
Great many thanks to forum member Supery Legacy for his tremendous hospitality. Copious amounts of pizza seem somehow related to quick tire wear. I hope to post more in the contributor's den section.
 
this seems like a good place to put these ;)

594E6D89-019B-48A0-96C8-19C3D8B4788B_zpsr9wi8iey.jpg
276ABDB7-C839-4E63-8D2C-6ACB5DF1ECF7_zpsbxyztk1h.jpg


from here: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=42693314&postcount=4499

Pretty sure those are the 15" Spaarcos or other 15" rally rims that clear the 4-pot, big-donkey calipers on these cars with 17s :twisted:
 
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Wow, do you know what model that is?

The thing is that the H4 had the smaller brakes until 2015 when it got the larger ones.

The 2010-4 H4 uses 16" in the base trim. The 2010-4 H6 cannot use normal 16" wheels.
 
MiddleAgeSubie said:
Wow, do you know what model that is?

The thing is that the H4 had the smaller brakes until 2015 when it got the larger ones.

The 2010-4 H4 uses 16" in the base trim. The 2010-4 H6 cannot use normal 16" wheels.
Click to expand...

i have no detaila on the trim of that car. Those rally 15" ris are not noral and typically clear brakes reular 15's wont, on cars typically fitted with 16" and 17" rims.

it does look nice doesn't it?! :lildevil:
 
OK, so probably this is as good a time for an update as any.

After a hundred miles stock and on stock tires, a few hundred miles stock but with Geolander AT-S, a couple of hundred stock+skid plates, several hundred with 0.5" spacers, skid plates, and stock-size Geolanders, and several hundred with 0.5" spacers, 28.5" Geolander AT-S (+0.9"), and skid plates for a total of nearly 1,500 unpaved miles on this OB including several hundred on 4WD HC roads, I can say the following:

Optimal mild lift in terms of balancing off-pavement gain with on-pavement behavior to me seems to be what I now have: 0.5" spacers and 0.45" nominal, but really just 0.3-0.35 real lift via the larger tires (Geolander AT-S run a notch smaller than advertized in both 225-60-17 and 225-65). The 0.5" spacers alone had no discernible effect on handling in any conditions (but I am no rally driver). The extra lift from the tires has had a barely discernible effect at higher-speed cornering than one should be practicing. Spirited types cry for a larger sway bar even on stock-height vehicles, but this is NOT a WRX (in fairness, what they really want is a Legacy XT wagon, which is something Subaru should bring back). There is no difference on pavement that I can tell when the car is driven as it should be. The acceleration from 0 has suffered a little.

Optimal lift in terms of gaining more off-pavement peace of mind w/o compromising on-road behavior much remains elusive, however.

Problem 1 is that the skid plates eat 0.5" of clearance, not counting the bolt heads, which actually matter when going over evenly shaped steps and when crawling over very large rocks (like 2-Outback long rocks). This means that the lowest point has moved from 8.7 to...9.0...or even that it has not changed at all, if counting the bolts!

Problem 2, which is the biggest, is the front bumper cover. There is no elegant modification for it. "tough" looking silliness is of no interest to me. I would pay for a good aftermarket bumper cover but it must look like it was put there by the factory. Who is going to offer that if a crude tubular piece of iron serves the same purpose and makes one look "tough?" That is fine on an old rig, but just does not cut it on anything with less than a dozen years on it. Bradze has found a mid-ground solution, but it is still not elegant enough for me.

Problem 3 is the rocker panel where the gains are most pronounced. Getting the lower edge over 11" and the main part at near a foot finally puts the OB in business. Still, getting to a foot comfortably would be nice.

Problem 1 is a tough one because the skid plates are really useful on easy trails, not where one crawls over the larger rocks. Maybe the AT plate can take a serious hit, but it is known that the front one made by Primitive cannot, which is ok as this is not a Wrangler. Nor would a moderate hit necessarily disable the car. The true usefulness of the plates as I have seen it is on easier terrain where they keep small rocks and tons of gravel from constantly hitting the undercarriage and where they help against the occasional miss-judged rock or ignored rut--as well as in sand and especially in water where things may not be what they seem. It is true that in the bigger rocks they are an "early warning system" but they still eat clearance...

At this point the most reasonable line seems to just be ready to build rocks and fill ruts. There is no way any further minor improvements will make a difference off--pavement. True upgrades--like raised springs or bigger spacers have huge on-road drawbacks. The former are said to make the ride very harsh though they keep handling in check. The latter require the stiff springs to preserve the handling AND require repositioned rear subframe which drops the rear differential...

Good for Subaru that nobody is offering anything comparable in all phases of the game: on and off-pavement, dependability and durability, resale values (now #1 in the USA), purchase and ownership price. :) Also, for all the clearance limitations, traction has been a non-issue and the outstanding ride off-pavement (even compared to the Tribeca) is an asset hard to overlook! So, I am a happy camper overall.
 
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^ I agree with Kevin.

Basically what you're talking about is "balance".

Subaru seems to be fairly good at achieving that, most of the time IMHO.

The trick is to choose the model that provides the particular balance one is seeking ...:poke: :biggrin:.
 
I deleted a longer post on the subject, but the bottom line is that in between a bit of thread wear and a little time on the car, the 225 65 17 Geolanders that provided a third of an inch of a lift when brand new, have me back at stock height (to plates, overall height is still up 0.5 due to spacers).

This may be normal but is very disappointing.

The YK on the Tribeca seem to have lowered clearance in exact relationship to threadwear. The ATS though seem to evaporate rubber!

Too bad there is a fantastic Pirelli Scorpion ATR sale now, they are 40% off! I wish they had that when I needed a new set, I would have taken those. If for no other reason, just to try something else.
 
So, I determined today that my setup is indeed the optimal "mild mods" one for a IV gen OB. Unfortunately, that is not much of a set up as it does not provide much of lift if used with Primitive Skid Plates (there goes the lift from the spacers in terms of min clearance; the car is still higher elsewhere) and Geolander AT-S (which lose diameter beyond thread wear).

Here is why:

1/29" tires do not work once spacers are installed and the rear wheels pushed just a bit forward. This is the story:

I took the kids to Discount Tire for a check of the 235-65-17 tires (29") for potential use on a separate set of wheels.

I have 0.5" Primitive spacers that push the rear wheel 1/4 or 3/8 forward.

With that the 235-65-17 tire they had at hand fit while almost rubbing on the front side: too close to be used that way. On a stock car, the tire would have fit a bit better, removal of the rubber around the wheel well arch may even make it work.

Thus 29" is the absolute maximum that could be said to fit on a stock car.

But then the great question is "WHY?"

On the one hand:
--much better AT choices
--better to much better AT prices, depending on tire
--3/4 lift

On the other hand, off-road capability is not just about lift:
--29" is too much for that wheel well, no matter how you look at it, travel suffers hugely in two directions;
--while the 29" ATs are not that heavier per se, one will want lightweight yet tough wheels for them (say goodbye to 1k) because:
--29" would penalize the H6 and should be a big "no, no" on the H4 if actually used on steep off-road hills.


Neutral: maybe the drivetrain can take the 29" tires providing it is an occasional use on light wheels; I do not know.

Perhaps if one wants absolutely no mods on the car other than tires and skid plates, a set of 235-65-17 on light but tough wheels (Team Dynamics offers 17.3lb wheel for 200) may be a reasonable solution for on-demand off-road tires and lift.

But it seems that 0.5" spacers and 28.5" tires, what I have, provide a better all around solution--so long as said 28.5" tires do not melt like sugar, that is. My 2 c, anyway.

2/ Installing additional 1/4 spacers is not really an option as that would make even the 28.5" tires borderline and make alignment less than straightforward.

So, on a IV generation Outback there are really just two options for mild mods, it seems:

1/my setup, 0.5" spacers and 28.5" tires (that run smaller in practice).
2/no spacers and 29" tires on a separate, lighter set of wheels.

All things considered, this seems like a wash, maybe mine is slightly better and certainly more convenient.

With that settled, the task becomes finding out whether SubaXtreme skid plates can be used in order to prevent clearance loss from skid plates and whether Pirelli Scorpion ATR tires come closer to advertized dimensions new as well as afterwards than Geolander AT-S.

That is about it as far as mild mods go...
 
Gidday MAS

This has been a very frustrating and costly exercise for you, mate. Sorry to hear it.

Have you considered going to a 16" rim? These are a placarded size for our SH Forester. It came standard with 225/55 17" tyres, but the other size is 215/65 16". Don't know about for your OB. There are more choices here in Oz for tyres for 16" rims than for 17". A year or so ago, there was almost nothing for 16", now we are ruined for choice. If I can source some OEM 16" rims at a reasonable price before it needs new tyres, I will replace the 17" rims and flog them.

I don't know what a s/h set of OEM 16" rims costs in the US, or even if they are readily available. This may be a possible solution for your needs.

As for Subaru's choice of rim sizes, methinks it is driven by the marketing people and car magazine reviewers rather than by engineering reasons and sense. After all, who buys their next set of tyres from a car stealership?
 
You made me think about it! It turns out that, mercifully, it has not been that costly!

The spacers themselves are relatively cheap and the installation was paid 90% by the now sadly defunct Subaru Chase mastercard rewards program. So that went very well and the spacers have so far been the only mod where second-guessing proved unjustified.

The only actual loss came on the first set of tires and bit on the second. HOWEVER, I got something for the stock tires and I paid half of the second set with rewards--add to that a Yoko promotion and it turns out that I have paid for one set and maybe 50$ extra. Not too bad. One set was a forgone conclusion.

So, all things considered, as of now, I have paid cash for 0.5" spacers, one set of tires + 50$, and one set of skid plates. The one botched alignment can be counted as a loss, too, but it was included in the spacers package, so it is not a separate amount. Not too bad, overall. The Subaru rewards were always meant for things like this, not service, etc. So I am not going to play an accountant and say that I could have kept about 250 in rewards had I not had to purchase a second set of tires.

If I do switch to a SubaXtreme plate, I will for the first time incur a real cash loss to the tune of 100-150, providing I am able to sell the current one.

Thus I cannot really complain. I knew NOTHING about mods 14 months ago--and that is why I signed up for this forum! :) So far, I think that the inevitable mistakes have not really cost me much cash at all.

So, there is that :)
 
Sorry, I forgot about the 16" rim. 16" wheels do not fit over the 3.6R's brakes though they are fine for 2010-14 2.5s. All 2015 models use the larger brakes ruling out 16" wheels.

In terms of what those could give me, a hypothetical 16" would indeed open up better tires and better prices in the 28.5" size.

However, even if I had the smaller brakes, the cost of switching from one 28.5" combo to another would be prohibitive (1,000 for good wheels and another 750 or so for BFG TA to make the whole thing worthwhile).

Probably the best thing to do is just to make an advanced purchase, maybe next year, on my next set of 225-65-17, possibly ATR this time, and then use the ATR only over the summer while fully wearing off the AT-S over the rest of the year. It will be many years before the mounting of tires twice a year comes to equate the cost of a set of good wheels.
 
Mate, we have all made mistakes in our lives ... !! Goes without saying. Those who haven't are often lacking something "human" as regards their compassion and identification with the trials and tribulations of others, and for that I pity them.

We can really only hope for two things:

1) that our mistake doesn't kill or injure us, or anyone else, FTM; and

2) that it doesn't cost us dearly financially.

Everything else is a learning experience that contributes to the development of life experience. An insight into, and an understanding of, that lifetime of experience contributes to what ever small amount of wisdom each of us possesses in some measure ... :poke: :biggrin:.

Glad your journey hasn't cost you as much hard, cold cash as I thought it had. I have reward points on both my CCs, and I just let them build up. Every couple of years, they pay for something expensive that has effectively cost us nothing, as we would have spent the money anyway, and all the goods purchased along the way would not have been one cent cheaper ...

Since we always pay off the balance of our CCs on the due date, the bank makes not one cent of interest. This is an effective rate of return of 23.5% p.a. on the total average monthly balance. I view this as arbitraging on the bank's deposits ...:ebiggrin: :lildevil:.

On the very rare occasion when I miss payment on the due date, my bank manager wipes the interest because I am such a good customer of such long standing :lildevil:.
 
MAS, can you get Bridgestone Dueler D697 in your size in the USA?

Quite a few people on this forum find them excellent for wear and off road use, while still performing acceptably on road. You don't strike me as the boy racer type, so they would probably be good for you. Being an AT light truck tyre, they are tough, durable and seem to work well off road.

I will be looking long and hard at these for my next set of tyres on my SG. Probably go to Bridgestone Potenza for SWMBO's SH when she needs new rubber around this (southern) winter.
 
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Great points, Ratbag, so far my learning has cost me little.

No, a quick Google search suggests that these are not available in the US. I found one online store that claims to have them, but not in my size.

In Australia, yes, they are available in 225-65-17.
 
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