Optimum mild lift for a IV gen OB

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Hello! I am new to this forum though I have been reading posts periodically. By the way, I also use the same username for the Outback and Tribeca forums.

Here is the question that I am currently asking myself: what mild lift would provide the best intersection between an increased ground clearance and maintained handling?

Have you lifted your fourth generation Outback by way of spacers? If so, by how much? Whose spacers did you use (Primitive, Subtle Solutions, or others)? Any adverse effects on handling or otherwise?

Having lost 0.5" of ground clearance due to skid plates, I am unable to decide whether to go for:

0.25" -- little difference but almost no cost and still puts me back to
8.5" with the lowest unprotected part at 9.

0.5" -- which my service person suggests as maximum effect before
side-effects appear, hence back to 8.7 lowest, but less of an issue
than previously as there would be nothing but skid plates below
9.2

0.75" ---which sounds best to me but which my service person finds
"aggressive."

What do I want the most? I want to do the White Rim Rd in Canyonlands and the Alpine Loop in Colorado, at the very least. Both should be doable with stock ground clearance, but these kind of roads do change with the weather conditions....

What do I not want? I do not want the vehicle to exhibit more than a slight difference in behavior vs. stock and I definitely do not want any adverse effect on its value (by way of creating side-problems through too much lift).

Any experiences with 0.75" spacers? How about 1" spacers? Any changes required to prevent adverse effects on the vehicle? Any issues with seriously compromised handling?

Thanks!

Edit: the skid plates are on the OB, the B9 pic is here just because it reminds me of a great drive and a fabulous hike (Horseshoe Canyon, Canyonlands NP, Utah)
Edit 2: I live in the western USA and the car in question is a 2013 Outback 3.6 R.

 

[Athos]

Some of a ground-clearance lift can come from spacers and updates to springs/shocks/bars/etc. But the wheels/tyres also come into play.
What tyres are standard on that model?
My Forester comes with 225/60R17 tyres and just by moving to 225/65R17 I would get 0.44" of increased clearance.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Yeah, I should have probably done that. Instead, I sold the Contis and went for the standard-sized 225-60-R17 Geolander AT. It was only later that I read on the OB forum about 225/65/R17s running fine on an OB. Any real negatives about the larger tires? Getting up by 0.44 in this fashion would be awesome...

As for the lift, I am not willing to do anything other than spacers.

While we are on it, the new Forester should be the best off-road Subaru to date. What are your impressions?

 

[Athos]

Yeah, I should have probably done that. Instead, I sold the Contis and went for the standard-sized 225-60-R17 Geolander AT. It was only later that I read on the OB forum about 225/65/R17s running fine on an OB. Any real negatives about the larger tires? Getting up by 0.44 in this fashion would be awesome...

I'm saving this change for when the current tyres wear down a bit. But according to my measurements there should be no clearance issues in the wheel arches, and the spare might (just?) fit in the back.

As for the lift, I am not willing to do anything other than spacers.

Not having done this I'm not an expert, but I gather that the spacers change the suspension geometry and at some level of lift you'll need other tweaks to re-balance things. Others here are experts on this.

While we are on it, the new Forester should be the best off-road Subaru to date. What are your impressions?

Loving it so far. But haven't yet done any huge off-road trips.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Thanks for your reply and the link, I will read that gladly! As for the lift, yes, it does change things beyond a certain point, which seems to be 1". The service guy says that I should go 0.5 as opposed to 0.75, but at that point I can just do the minimal but totally inexpensive 0.25 vs. the less minimal but way more expensive 0.5 lift. Hence the conundrum.

As for the tires, yes, I am with this set of ATs until they last. However, we travel with kids up to 30 miles from the nearest paved road. The OEM tires are more likely to go bust and the Contis on the OB, which I tested over 70 miles of off-pavement (no off road) felt like hiking in flip flops, definitely preventing the vehicle from showing its potential. My first car loan payment was 90 days after purchase hence the tire change, which was planned from before the purchase, had no immediate effect on my pocket.

 

[Fly]

Spacers are cheap, true... but unless you do the work yourself, getting them installed is quite a significant amount considering you also have to get the wheels aligned.

To make it worthwhile, if I were you I'd get the maximum height spacers I could without having to add trailing arm spacers or any other mods; that is a max of about 2in on the SF. Might be different on your Outback... The added cost to get bigger spacers is minimal over the total cost of the operation.

Does your service guy have any experience modifying suspensions? To be honest I found many try to answer even if they don't know anything... in such a situation, they'd think ".25 sounds pretty small so i don't think it'd cause anything... .5 sounds big so better be safe and tell him no". Even though it's totally safe, he just has no idea. I have no intention to discredit his skills: just make sure that if you listen to him that he knows very well what he's talking about.

 

[NachaLuva]

IIRC the gen 4 has a funny rear suspension setup that requires a different lift approach. I wonder if anyone else can add anything?

Strut spacers are pretty easy to do if you have some tools, a breaker bar ( some of the bolts can be seized but on a gen 4 should be fine), stands, etc. Make sure you get a wheel alignment & release the tension on the front lower control arm rear bush.

The negatives of bigger tyres are increased fuel consumption & less power/torque (less acceleration) & reduced braking. Its only a small change in size & you have a nice powerful engine so you prob wont notice much. With a lil EJ20, the change is more noticeable lol

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Many thanks for the input! The service guys at the actual dealership where I bought the car are those claiming that 0.5 is fine but 0.75 too much. They claim to have installed spacers before, mostly 0.5. I have no way of verifying this but they seemed to have installed skid plates before, as they claimed (other dealers refuse to do any modification work). The work cost is outrageous at nominal value but bargaining reduced that to a manageable if still too big of a number. There is no way I can throw actual money at things like the installation of skid plates or spacers but I have been saving my Subaru rewards dollars for this very purpose.



By the way, any luck with somehow fitting a full size 225-60-17 spare in place of the donut? I know it won’t go down, but can it be made to fit deflated without lifting the cargo floor too much?

 

[mr turbo]

G'day MiddleAgeSubie & to ORS.

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[Toys-N-Joys]

i vote gorilla lift spacers.

best bang for your buck 1" lift out.

about $115 plus shipping and some longer bolts.



i would not pay dealer prices to install it either. if you have tools time and some knowledge you can do it for free plus the cost of a alignment.

some people even do the alignment for free too

 

[Superu_legacy]

Thanks for your inquiry via PM, I've responded. I found this thread and have a couple other points to make now after reading about your set-up.

The skid plates only technically reduced ground clearance but I wouldn't say effectively reduced clearance. And I didn't fully think out the fourth gen OB point in your PM.
I thin kyour H6 comes with a CVT right? I would be a bit more hesitant to off-road a CVT than a fixed-gear automatic. While I'm faily confident your rig would have the clearance for the White Rim, I get a bit more concerned at that generation OB's approach and departure angles, and the CVT gives me pause as well. With Geolanders, you've made a good tire choice, and the 65 series would've been a better fit. But the evil of the subjunctive rears its head here, hindsight is reliably 20/20!

I'll agree that .5" would be totally fine and I'd also lean towards the .75" but that's speaking from older generation subarus and lifts. I've read the 10+ OB feels a bi rolly-polly compared, but I also think it was stiffened a bit in 11 or 12. I'd like to see a bit less offset giving a scosh wider track and fatter tire than stock, but that's all aesthetics talking.

I'm curious to see where this conversation goes and I'm happy to stay tuned.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Yes, many thanks again for the helpful reply!

No, no CVT, that is what the 2.5s have. I have a nice AT. Indeed, I could not have been happier with the 5AT H6 combo (and thus we have it on both vehicles). It is the next generation OB that will probably be exclusively CVT (hopefully equipped with X-mode). The approach and departure angles...are better left unmentioned and will only marginally improve with a 0.5 lift (this is where the Forester has a clear advantage).

 

[Superu_legacy]

Yes, many thanks again for the helpful reply!

No, no CVT, that is what the 2.5s have. I have a nice AT. Indeed, I could not have been happier with the 5AT H6 combo (and thus we have it on both vehicles). It is the next generation OB that will probably be exclusively CVT (hopefully equipped with X-mode). The approach and departure angles...are better left unmentioned and will only marginally improve with a 0.5 lift (this is where the Forester has a clear advantage).

Great then. Yes the H-6 with 5EAT would be a good combination. When I read you PM I was impressed at what you'd taken it up and down while thinking it was CVT. So, when I mentioned your questions to my friend, he immediately responded with, "scouting trip?!" So who knows.. Maybe we'll go out and check on things for you! :iconwink: albeit in the snow

I read the other post you reference and see that Outbacks have pulled the WR. The lifted outback with a manual (if i recall correctly) wanted to make the run, but I don't recall if he did. I think a stock EJ25 manual would have issues with a couple of the climbs. the vehicle could probably pull it but it would be a bit of a run and not like the slower capability of an automatic or low range. The EJ25 with 4.11 FD is pretty torquey down low, but I'd still be hesitant to just openly say, "Yeah go for it, you'll be fine!" as it WILL be tough on that clutch for sure!

A 2.5 engine with an auto would have no problems, and therefore your 3.6 with auto wouldn't have a problem with the climbs, some of the technical spots, given particular conditions after pas weather could be concerning in as much that I wouldn't feel comfortable in saying with 100% that it'll be cake.
Given its a new car and you're still paying for it for a while yet, I would consider adding a transmission cooler or taking the guaranteed way of a jeep rental [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNrxsDDNnr8"]jeep rental[/ame]
(just s snippet on hell's revenge from when I rented a few years ago) (a stock wrangler for $100/day or a more confidant modified rubicon for $150-200 would leave NO pause), but as a driver and one who likes challenges, I think low gear in an auto and braking will be fine for both transmission and brakes on descents. It's not like its miles of high speed braking at 8-10% grade.

approach angles may play a factor, but if I were with you, I'd certainly support making the run in your OB. Being solo is the concern for the overall go. How many days is your permit or are you just going to run it in a day to be out in that country?

The shafer to potash run is a great low-ish risk trip with some good terrain and is not the commitment of the entire WR, you can also do Long Canyon
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DXGvBQxgVw"]Long canyon[/ame] [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuyGGvhuqGM"]Long canyon Subaru-down - YouTube[/ame]
(easier going down from dead horse to the river, but a better pat-on-the -back pulling it as a climb) which makes a similar decent from dead horse point down to the river, just a little upstream from shafer to potash. Just going down [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKJiUFreZYE"]mineral bottom[/ame] is fun in itself, and there's a similar run upstream on the green called spring canyon bottom which gains access to the bowknot bend there .

A run out to and over Hoorah pass is a good trip. Play some disk golf at Adventure Base Camp (disc course review) I haven't done it yet, but you might be able to get out to chicken corners but I don't know how techy that gets past the lockheart basin turn off.
We went left up lockhart so I haven't been all the way ot to chicken corners
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ONVYl2YA8A"]Suby on lockhart crew - YouTube[/ame] Whole technical climb section -> [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pfwh28yEWSA"]Lockhart Basin in a Subaru - YouTube[/ame]

I have some GPS tracks of these runs loaded up in the moabbuzz forum and try to put up more as I'm out and about and can do it...

How long is your WR permit for or are you planning to just get down in that country for the day? Assuming you're in the throws of planning your Moab spring trip, how long will you be in the area? I'll help with what I know and can find out and we'll see how this conversation goes. There's a lot of country a Scoob cannot do around here, BUT there is a lot of great country a soob CAN do as well!!!! BTW, sometime in mid 2013 the gemini bridges road was re graded and the steep loose climb section (from the sandy valley) was smoothed to minivan capable. There still are a couple of little steps higher up towards the bridges and I think those have cheater runs as well. So I'm somewhat confident (given driver ability in good picking lines) in saying a regular passenger car (and absolutely an outback) could run gemini bridges down and an outback certainly up or down.

Ciao,
-mw-​

 

[NachaLuva]

Long canyon Subaru-down - YouTube​

​

Awesome! A definite hold-your-breath moment

Thanks for sharing your reply Superu, great reading. Makes me wanna jump on a plane! :biggrin:

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

All I can say for now is WOW...that is some visual material I need to study! Thanks so very much for the fantastic post! The fact that there is no pointless music playing in lieu of the all-important actual noise makes the videos particularly helpful. Of course, things usually look worse in person, so I have to account for that, too. I noticed you have developed a Jeep style of driving (going quite fast through rocks). I go similarly fast through small rocks but very slowly through anything else. I guess going faster comes with the territory (experience+mods).

What was the reason for being pulled out of the steep incline in Lockhart basin? Was it insufficient engine power? Good thing that Lockhart basin is not my type of thing:ebiggrin:

Doing in my Subaru what the Jeep did in the first video in dry conditions is a no-brainer. It is truly loose surfaces going down that are the problem due to lack of LR...on one occasion I started slipping down on the top, steepest section of a hill...not fun...released the breaks...pressed again...things got better after 2-3 yards and there was a take-a-left easy option, which I took. Going straight would have required crawling at the very end due to approach angle concerns. Probably I could have made it as the hill eased a bit but there was no way I would try. I do not remember having any problems going up.

Generally, I am not sure that the wisdom that going down is easier than going up applies to my vehicle and myself. Going down does not only involve the risk of sliding, but doing so in rocky terrain also means being unable to judge things properly w/o getting out.

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday MSA, and a belated to the ORS forum, mate.

There are a few unbreakable rules about driving generally that also particularly apply to driving off-road:

• Know your own abilities and experience, and stay well within them.
  
• Know what your car will do, and stay within that.
  
• If it's worth thinking twice about something, it's probably well worth thinking about it again ...

Just FWIW.

It is very easy to get yourself into seriously dangerous situations, even while following the above advice.

It is even easier if you don't ... .

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Thanks for the welcome

I really like your basic rules. But how does one know what a Subaru can do? For example, one can buy very nice guides for true off-road vehicles. Then one can start from easy trails, get to moderate trails, and then proceed to difficult ones. In addition, there is plenty of visual material online to help one understand how a Wrangler behaves in all sorts of situations. None of this applies to Subaru-s. The guides written for Wranglers and 4-Runners are a very, very approximate guide for Subaru-s. What Superu has shared with all of us in this thread and elsewhere is probably more than 50% of all the useful info I have found about going off-road in the areas where I can reasonably expect to take my Subaru. Therefore, there is no way to really know what one's vehicle can do without being a pioneer, of sorts:ebiggrin:. I have good reasons to be extra careful. But what a minimally modified Subaru can do in the southwest of the USA seems to remain an open question. So much so that if I had the time and the money (especially the time as this can be done without too much expense), I would team with somebody, tour the region, and write a guide meant for Subaru-s.

But, again, I do like your rules. If I am to risk something that would be minor damage to the car as opposed to falling off the side of a mountain:iconwink:

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday MAS

I suppose that one should be alert for situations where it is obvious that one can hang up, either in the middle or at either end. Mountain roads that look "iffy". Etc.

As you say, some things just look out and out dangerous!

However, it is very, very easy to get in way too deep. This usually happens when you are least expecting it - like here:

https://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=3245

at Bunyip State Park only just on the outskirts of Melbourne ...

I also agree that gentle experimentation can help one find what all those limits are. Of course, they are different for each of us too.

 

[NachaLuva]

Poor RB, he wasnt too happy with how that Bunyip trip went. After we got out, we thought "what a hoot" :rotfl:

I have since been back & made it up the Phasmid Tr despite light rain

The thing here is different people have different expectations & limitations on what they are willing to try & damage they are willing to accept. I dont want panel or mechanical damage but I'm willing to accept mild underbody damage whereas RB isnt...he has a much nicer, newer Foz & different requirements. He's happy with offroad touring whereas I look for harder tracks. Both is good but very different!

The biggest obstacle to a Subie isnt ground clearance (although beware the overhangs on an OB), remembering we dont have massive diffs hanging down between the wheels.

Our problem is articulation, or lack of it. The OEM viscous LSD in the rear helps when lifting a wheel, or you could get a plated rear diff from a WRX or JDM import. Even better but more expensive is a Cusco (better mannered) or KAAZ plated LSD. Until someone comes up with a Subaru locker, this is our best option.

Of course there's other ways to make up for our lack of articulation by using more momentum but the best way is, with experience & guidance, picking the best line.

A good example was when I followed Dedman up a steep, mildly rutted track in Bunyip. We were in identical SF Foresters (although his is the later engine with an extra 3HP & 8Nm! ). He made it up easily on road tyres at normal pressure. I had ATs aired down to 20psi, yet I struggled. The difference was experience & picking a better line.

The other thing is tyres. They are the only thing keeping you on the road or track. If you can afford it, the best option is to have a set of ATs for general onroad, easy offroad & sand, & another set of muddies for more serious tracks incl, yep...mud!

Remember muddies have much less grip onroad esp in the wet & wear much faster but will give you maximum traction in mud, clay & rocks & maximum puncture protection.

Finally, there's no harm in having a look as long as you have an escape route. Get out & look. Determine where the point of commitment is. Walk the track. Consider the consequences of the track, ie, dangerous drop-offs, being stuck in remote locations, damage to the vehicle &/or injury to yourself, etc. If in doubt, discretion may be wiser. If its safe, dont be scared to make several attempts, each time trying something new. A different line, more momentum, air down more, etc. Recently at Reefton, I did all these things to finally make it up a steep clay hill with multiple lines.

My advice...get out there, have fun but always exercise caution :biggrin:

 

[Ratbag]

^ Quite right, NL.

However, your comment "After we got out" says heaps :iconwink:. I also don't actively seek excitement. Life is exciting enough - until we die ...

I also did all that other stuff in my youth in far more appropriate, designed for purpose vehicles.

Further, you are right, I have not the slightest desire to damage my vehicle. As it was, after Noojee I had to have the muffler replaced due to damage. That damage probably occurred as much at Bunyip as it did at Noojee.

I also no longer have the equipment or desire to do my own structural repairs.

Because of my health issues (perhaps), I am even more aware of the potential outcomes of such adventures. I have to take the medications I am on between 1900H and 2100H every night. Not to do so could have fatal consequences for me. I did not have a dose of my medications with me that day. That situation will never occur again, and it was/is a valuable lesson for me that I should always carry at least one night's meds with me.

It's not always just about potential damage to one's vehicle. There are also other considerations that need to be taken into account.