Replace, refurbish or swap?

[Tannin]

The MY05 Forrester I bought new in 2004 is getting a bit tired after 260,000 faithful kilometres. Do I spend some money on it? Buy a second-hand one the same? Or buy a new one?

The old girl is down on power and starting to use a bit of oil sometimes. I don't know why yet. It needs new rear springs, new struts all round, and presumably a bit of other work on the suspension to bring it back to A1. It also needs the clock light replaced, a new cup holder, possibly a swap-over second-hand driver's window winder switch assay (sometimes it sticks), a new driver's seat or at least a recover (I've worn right through the fabric - dunno why my bum isn't worn out too!) and a new seat belt (old one is getting a bit worn). I'm 40,000k away from the next timing belt replacement at 300k. Most of the plastic skirts are damaged from hitting things at low speed off-road which makes them look tatty, though I don't care about that.

On the other hand, the body is good; no rust, never had a bingle; the gearbox and brakes are great; even the clutch is (unbelivably!) still the original factory fit and never been touched.

Option 1: buy a new one. No real question about what I'd get: a diesel Forrester, manual, base model with a tow bar and nothing much else. (If I wanted a palace I'd buy a house.) There are several good reasons to do this, which I won't bore you by listing. There are two main reasons why not. First, I don't want to spend $40,000 right now. I don't have it to spare at present (but I will have in about two years time after I retire). Second, I like the old one better. There really is very little about my MY05 Forrester that I don't like, and several things about the new ones that don't thrill me. I don't want a big, ugly car. I don't want poor rear visibility from the stupid high glass line. I really don't want framed windows - I'm a wildlife photographer and the frameless windows of the MY05 really help when you are using big lenses. And most of all, I'd have to reinvent a decade worth of neat tricks for packing vast amounts of gear into a known, well-understood space such that I always know where everything is and can reach anything with the minimum of trouble.

Option 2: buy a second-hand Forrester the same as this one - say 2004-5-6 and I think 2007 was the last year before they went to the ugly new big body - with maybe 120,000k on it instead of 260,000. Or 70,000k if I can find one owned by a grannie.

For: pretty much all the reasons I like the old car. Plus I can keep the set of extra rims I have, which are more than handy.

Against: Foresters go for stupid prices second-hand! Also, what problems am I buying into? Would still have to get the second battery wired in, possibly fit a tow bar ... minor stuff but every extra expense has to be counted in. Total cost? Dunno: somewhere between 10k and 20k, I guess.

Option 3: spend a bit on the old girl. All those things I listed above, plus possibly something with the engine at some stage. That's still unknown. Total cost: dunno, maybe 4 or 5 grand?

If I go with (1) the new one, I'll keep it for 10 years or so and do a few hundred thousand kilometres. If I go with (2) or (3) I'd expect to go for maybe for or five years longer and buy a new one in (say) 2018, which would then last me till about 2028.

I think I already know what I'm going to do, but I'll just put the question out there and see what happens. I'll be very interested to read your thoughts, good people.

 

[OutbackOiler]

There is no easy answer, you have more negatives for a new one than the others, so I would its between 2 and 3

 

[stilson]

I say refurbish, but I'm a sentimental old git.

 

[Venom]

Personally i'd prefer the devil i know. Each item you address with your car will be one step closer to having it the way you want. You already have a rough idea of what needs to be done. There shouldn't be any surprises there.

Once you replace the suspensions you know it'll handle like new for years to come. Get the seat reupholstered and maybe shaped a little better? It too will be good as new for probably as long as you keep the car. Cup holder, switch etc is easy stuff you could do yourself in a day with a trip to the wreckers and some basic tools. Or just drop it off at the wreckers and get them to replace that stuff for you, they generally charge reasonable rates. Sebastapol motor wreckers are great, i used them a lot in Ballarat. They let you into the yard as well to check out the cars which is good.

Decent second hand seat belts can be hard to get a hold of... but that's a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. if it's fraying then just lightly skim over it with a lighter.

I don't see a terminal reason why a 260k km car would be noticeably down on power. A decent service, plugs, filters, subaru fuel treatment and subaru upper engine cleaner treatment should get it running a lot better. You could also just have a faulty sensor somewhere, they don't always give off CEL. You should get another 200k km out of it if you've serviced it regularly.

It's also not a fare comparison to add the potential maintenance costs + value of your current car to just the purchase price of a second hand one. It's guaranteed to have hidden maintenance expenses as well that you need to factor in to that financial comparison.

If you don't have a good//trustworthy mechanic then I'd recommend Scooters Automotive in Corbett street. I was taking my 2 Subies (old and new) plus my old Valiant there and Mark always did a very thorough job at reasonable rates.

 

[Dulagarl]

^ I agree.

You know what it has been through. There a no "skeltons in the closet" so to speak. Tidy it up a bit and keep it.

 

[Tannin]

Cheers lads, helpful advce all round.

Venom, I've been taking my cars to Greg down at Regent Automotive in Main Road since I had the Mazda RX-4, which would be 1985.

One thing that might be relevant: we have been getting an engine management light for quite a while now. (Months.) According to the computer, it's the hot wire oxygen sensor. Apparently that means it could be either the sensor itself or the engine management computer. Replacing the computer is no small job, I believe. So we took a punt and replaced the sensor. No dice: the warning light came straight back. Greg and I agreed that it would be best to take it into the Subaru dealer 'cause their computer can provide more detailed and accurate readouts. But I haven't got around to it yet. They are on the other side of town and it's always a bit awkward fitting a trip over there and back into the day.

But just last night I stumbled across this thread - https://www.offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=4607 - and thought "why not?" Has to be worth a try. So I have the battery disconnected at this very moment and in about 10 minutes I'll go and try it out. If the donk is good, hell, we are already past the half-way mark at 260,000k, why not try for half a million?

 

[Venom]

The ECU should be (relatively) easy to source second hand and only take maybe 30 mins to swap out. I'm fairly sure they have a serial number/ID on the ECU you can match up to make sure you get the same one.

 

[Dulagarl]

Cheers lads, helpful advce all round.

Venom, I've been taking my cars to Greg down at Regent Automotive in Main Road since I had the Mazda RX-4, which would be 1985.

One thing that might be relevant: we have been getting an engine management light for quite a while now. (Months.) According to the computer, it's the hot wire oxygen sensor. Apparently that means it could be either the sensor itself or the engine management computer. Replacing the computer is no small job, I believe. So we took a punt and replaced the sensor. No dice: the warning light came straight back. Greg and I agreed that it would be best to take it into the Subaru dealer 'cause their computer can provide more detailed and accurate readouts. But I haven't got around to it yet. They are on the other side of town and it's always a bit awkward fitting a trip over there and back into the day.

But just last night I stumbled across this thread - https://www.offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=4607 - and thought "why not?" Has to be worth a try. So I have the battery disconnected at this very moment and in about 10 minutes I'll go and try it out. If the donk is good, hell, we are already past the half-way mark at 260,000k, why not try for half a million?

I had a similar problem with the MY03 before I sold it, and replaced the sensor and the problem didn't go away. The mechanic then throughly cleaned the throttle body and the problem didn't come back.

I suggest that cleaning the throttle body might do the trick. Not sure how to do it or what is used.

Also, have you been using subaru upper engine cleaner? It does make a difference in terms of removing gunk from components that might be telling the computer that there is a problem. I doubt that the ECU is stuffed becuase you would have bigger problems than an engine light if it were.

 

[Venom]

The Subaru UEC would clean it.

 

[mr turbo]

Personally i'd prefer the devil i know. Each item you address with your car will be one step closer to having it the way you want. You already have a rough idea of what needs to be done. There shouldn't be any surprises there.

You know what it has been through. There a no "skeltons in the closet" so to speak.

Ditto.

I'd most probably be fixing it up if it was me

You said you bought it new, so you know exactly what it's been through & what it's had done on it.

But thats just my opinion

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[waggaclint]

IMO if ya can afford to go with option 1.

If you where to spend a few grand on yours and then get rid of it in the next couple of years its just wasted money really, as it won't ad any value etc and in the end the rest of the car will still be 9yrs old hey..(if your keen to keep it you'd be better off just spending as little as possible and driving into the ground hey)

Maybe look at a runout demo SH9 2012 as it could save a good amount over a brand new one..

 

[Tannin]

Cheers all. I'm still sitting here scratching my head at the notion of pouring one of those "engine clean" things into my car. I have always understood that they were not worth the paper they are written on, just as likely to do harm as good, and essentially just a way to separate the gullible prawn from his hard-earned dollar. Tey hafve a shocking reputation.

But there are people I respect in this thread recommending it, and a bit of searching elsewhere turns up similar (albeit mixed) results, and Subaru themselves specify it, or at least the Australian branch does.

PS: my previously made decision, if you haven't guessed, was to upgrade the car I already have. Nevertheless, I'm still very open to other views and willing to change my mind if it seems warranted. Thanks for all the responses!

 

[Darkanion]

You have enough negatives on option 1, it doesn't make sense for that to be a real option.

Option 2 you priced at possibly upwards of half the price of option 1 and you'd be buying Lord knows what problems with it from the previous owner. (Maybe none, maybe loads of abuse that has been well hidden in the "make ready" for selling it to someone else.)

Option 3 makes the most sense. Even if you end up spending more than you expect, you would still have the car that you bought new that you know. To me, that seems to be the cheapest option and it would reduce your risk for "issues" that you might be buying with option 2.

Good luck with the choice and the outcome!

 

[aware]

If it were me, I'd probably spend the money and go with the new Diesel, especially with the End of Financial Year sale. The best 2 options you've got (IMO) are to keep what you've got, and work on it, or to replace the car. When it's time to replace my Forester, it'll be replaced by a new car, as you never really know what you're buying with a used car. If you do a lot of kilometres, a new diesel makes sense.

Apart from the interior colour, this isn't a bad buy:
2.0D MY13

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Tannin

Cheers all. I'm still sitting here scratching my head at the notion of pouring one of those "engine clean" things into my car. I have always understood that they were not worth the paper they are written on, just as likely to do harm as good, and essentially just a way to separate the gullible prawn from his hard-earned dollar. Tey hafve a shocking reputation.

But there are people I respect in this thread recommending it, and a bit of searching elsewhere turns up similar (albeit mixed) results, and Subaru themselves specify it, or at least the Australian branch does.

Same here.
However, all modern engines have such fine tolerances that it is extremely important to keep the valves and cylinders heads as clean as possible.

Both our 1994 Camry and 1993 Impreza had this stuff as part of their regular services. Roo1 had done 234,000 kms over nearly 18 years when it was "retired" as a trade in on Roo2 in late 2011. We bought it new in early 1994.

Just before Roo1 got the chop, I drove it to Brisbane and back in the scorching summer heat. In 4,500 kms it used no oil and no water. Most of its life I drove it like I stole it ... On the trip to and from Brissy I averaged a tad over 100 km/h when moving - all day, every day, with the air-con running for over 3/4 of the entire trip. Sometimes a tad more ... :rotfl:.

PS: my previously made decision, if you haven't guessed, was to upgrade the car I already have. Nevertheless, I'm still very open to other views and willing to change my mind if it seems warranted. Thanks for all the responses!

I would have also followed this course of action if the Impreza suited me. Loved the car to bits, but would never have jumped over a Forester to buy one ...

Roo2 was bought s/h with around 101,000 kms on the clock. It may cost me some dough along the way. So be it. It suits me down to the ground. The only thing it doesn't do better than Roo1 is going through corners at lunatic speeds! However, I've almost grown out of doing that ... .

I like driving Roo2 much more than driving SWMBO's MY10 XS auto. AFAIAC, I will drive it till it drops, and I will probably beat it to that point in any event.

 

[Tannin]

Aware and Waggaclint, thankyou for your dissenting views! They make good sense.

For me, I don't have the readies to buy a new car now, I'd have to borrow the money, which I don't want to do. I'll be selling my business in a year and a bit, and that will provide me with a modest lump sum to retire on. So I could buy a new Forrester at that time, and indeed that was my original plan. But I've changed my mind. Here is why:

I generally keep a car for about 10 years, so a new one would do me 'till I'm about 65. By then it will have done 3 or 4 hundred thousand kilometres and be worth approximately nothing. I'd be getting the diesel, so let's say $40,000. (A bit less with Aware's example, but I'll stay with round figures, and recognise that the dollar is now headed back to a more rational and sustainable value, so prices will trend up in the medium term.)

So, over the ten year life of the car, that works out to $4000 per year, round figures (and ignoring petrol, tyres, insurance and maintainance - but these are things you have to pay anyway, so we can indeed ignore them).

Keeping my current car costs nothing at all, and for every year I delay buying a new car, I save $4000 in depreciation. So I could spend $3000 doing it up next week, and then another $3000 sometimes next year, and another $3000 the year after that, and I'd actually still be $3000 better off in 2016 than if I'd bought the new one!

When you look at the relative costs like that, it gives you a whole new perspective. Even if the old girl spits the dummy and costs me four thousand bucks in a single year, that's no worse than what a new one will cost me every year. And once I attend to my laundry list of things to do to her - which might be about four grand worth - it's not unlikely that I'll get three or four or five more good years.

Of course, the big factor here is that I don't especially want a new car: I like the old one and I'm not mad keen on what Subaru have done to the current Foresters - too big, poor rear visibility, very ugly (not that the old one is an oil painting), and what have they done with my treasured low ratio?! Mind you, I wouldn't say no to that fantastic diesel fuel economy......

PS: we should do some sums on running costs too. The diesel will cost less for juice, no question there, but probably more for routine servicing and quite a lot more to insure. How many miles would one have to do in a brand new diesel Foz to save enough in juice to pay for the extra depreciation, insurance, and servicing? I should do those number too but I think my brain has frosted over strike. Dinner time!

 

[pezimm]

Hi Tannin,

I share your hesitation on Diesels when it comes to total cost of ownership. I don't necessarily think they are cheaper in the long run. Even if you run high kms, given the added maintenance costs it probably works out the same. Clear advantages in my opinion are if you do remote travelling and if you tow.

Your dilemma is not an easy one to solve, but if money is your main priority, than keeping your car is probably the cheapest option.

Pedro.

 

[NachaLuva]

Of course, the big factor here is that I don't especially want a new car: I like the old one and I'm not mad keen on what Subaru have done to the current Foresters - too big, poor rear visibility, very ugly (not that the old one is an oil painting), and what have they done with my treasured low ratio?! Mind you, I wouldn't say no to that fantastic diesel fuel economy......

You said it all...If you weren't happy with the old one & really liked the new Foz then I'd say get a demo with factory warranty. But, like many many others, you dont like the direction Subaru have taken with the Forester (VDC excepted...That I'd LOVE to have!), so I'd say stick with what you know & what you like, spend some money on it doing it up like new & you'll be happy :biggrin:

I put new springs/struts in my '97 Foz & now it handles better than new

All cars cost money to maintain, new cars cost a lot more!

 

[El_Freddo]

I say refurbish, but I'm a sentimental old git.

Me too!

To me money is always a factor in these things - I decided to keep my beloved L series as I hadn't had my time with her yet.

But you've got a few other options to consider, some seem to be rather shaky as if you were only ever toying with them.

Personally it can be painful working through all the faults in the vehicle to get it back up to spec that you're after, but once you're through that pain the rewards are well worth the effort if you've kept the budget within spec.

You clearly love the features of the car and know it's faults. To me this is half of the battle. Second hand vehicles should not be seen as "what issue have I just bought" if you've done the appropriate research on the vehicle. I'm still on the fix the ride you've got side of the fence on this one. Nothing wrong with a high km car if you've looked after it!

Ruby Scoo's not far off 500k km, but she's had a lot of work done on her since I got her at 297k km - that said I'm still well under the cost of your average second hand car that most people look for - I'm happy with that and at the end of the day that's all that matters!

So, if you want to put the time and effort into your current subi go with it. If a second hand subi is calling you go with that. At the end of the day YOU have to be happy with your decision - don't have buyer's remorse (or sellers more to the point!)

Cheers

Bennie

 

[Ratbag]

G'day again Tannin

As to total costs of owning a car (TCO = Total Cost of Ownership).

The cheapest car I have ever owned was #2 Mitsubishi Colt. Bought it s/h, so about 35% off new price. This brought the depreciation, loss of interest on funds invested and opportunity costs down pretty dramatically. Bloody thing broke down all over the State. It was left at the scrap metal yard at around 250,000 kms. From cradle to grave, it cost me about 23.5c/km, all up.

The second cheapest was Roo1. Never broke down anywhere in 234,000 kms. I bought it new, so depreciation, loss of interest and opportunity costs were all greater than #2 Colt (we had three Colts over some 18 years, in all ... ). I have never done the sums accurately, but a close estimate is around 32.5 to 34.5c/km. Almost all of the difference is in the capital costs, with a small increase in other fixed costs such as more for insurance and registration (bigger engine; greater value).

These costs include absolutely all fixed and variable costs in both cases.

To my undying shame, I not only passed both units of Cost Accounting; I got distinctions for them ... . Spent a goodly part of my life working as an accountant; both employed and in public practice. So my figures are probably pretty close to the mark.

The above is why I chose to buy both our current Foresters s/h.

Roo2 cost around 45% of new price (adding back the trade-in value of Roo1), with approximately two thirds of the economically viable mileage still available (done about 100,000 kms, with an estimated usable life of 300,000 kms at minimum). Body in immaculate condition - this being the most expensive part of a car to fix/repair. This massively reduces the cost per km as far as capital costs are concerned: $19,000/200000 = 9.5c/km for depreciation, assuming zero exit value. This figure compares very favourably with the depreciation cost of Roo1, at 11.55c/km - which is approx 21.5% higher for Roo1! Similarly, opportunity costs and loss of interest on one's money are also reduced.

RonnyRoo cost approx 62% of new price (adding back the trade-in value of the Camry), with only 65,583 kms on the clock, and still under Subaru new car warranty (balance transferable to us). The mileage left translates to around 78% of the economic life of this vehicle. Again, this means that the capital cost of the vehicle is significantly less than buying new - roughly 11.1c/km, as against approx 14.0c/km for a new one - roughly 26% less than depreciation alone as against a new one.

Of course, these estimates for Roo2 and RonnyRoo are both based on an estimated economic lifespan of 300,000 kms from new for each vehicle. For us, it is most likely that both vehicles will reach "end of life" by the effluxion of years, rather than hitting their maximum economic mileage.

The mileage estimate is also optimistic for most young drivers; and equally pessimistic for most older drivers.

If anyone is interested, I may be able to construct a relatively complete costing schema for cars.