Alternative energy sources for cars & other purposes

[NachaLuva]

I suggest we get back on topic...a discussion about electric cars. Leave the discussion bout nuclear energy, population control and the carbon tax for those who are able to understand it better...or at least discuss it better.


RB...electric cars...

 

[thunder039]

I suggest we get back on topic...a discussion about electric cars.

while i can admire electric cars performance. my biggest issue with them, including the hybrid vehicles is that they are seen as "green". there is very little that are green about these vehicles from the manufacturing of the batteries and then were the electricity comes from to charge the vehicle (dedicated electric vehicles)

 

[NachaLuva]

there is very little that are green about these vehicles from the manufacturing of the batteries and then were the electricity comes from to charge the vehicle (dedicated electric vehicles)

Yeah thats the big problem atm...the electricity used to charge them is in most cases from dirty fossil fuel, plus the batteries have some very toxic chemicals in them. Plus some of the metals are only mined in places like the Congo, pushing species like lowland gorillas closer to extinction

However, it is a move in the right direction and gives governments & manufacturers incentive to pump billions of dollars into the energy revolution...much overdue!

If you think thats a lot...check out the US defense budget! The cost of just the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan alone is 3-4 TRILLION dollars...conservatively!

Imagine if that was spent on R&D for cold fusion, etc...

 

[mr turbo]

I suggest we get back on topic...a discussion about electric cars.

I agree !

Please, lets all take a deep breath & chill out a bit.
As my finger is starting to get itchy !

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[thunder039]

Yeah thats the big problem atm...the electricity used to charge them is in most cases from dirty fossil fuel, plus the batteries have some very toxic chemicals in them. Plus some of the metals are only mined in places like the Congo, pushing species like lowland gorillas closer to extinction

However, it is a move in the right direction and gives governments & manufacturers incentive to pump billions of dollars into the energy revolution...much overdue!

If you think thats a lot...check out the US defense budget! The cost of just the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan alone is 3-4 TRILLION dollars...conservatively!

Imagine if that was spent on R&D for cold fusion, etc...

although its great that we are investing such large amounts into this energy source i do think that it all could be wasted due to the fact the mining of the materials needed will to make the batteries will never be environmental friendly.

 

[NachaLuva]

although its great that we are investing such large amounts into this energy source i do think that it all could be wasted due to the fact the mining of the materials needed will to make the batteries will never be environmental friendly.

Thats the point of R&D...to find solutions to the very large problems we currently have. I agree the current range of batteries, esp lithium ion, isnt too environmental friendly, but I am 100% certain that will change

 

[Rally]

The thread is about alternative energy for cars. I lost interest in the thread early on, but thought it pertinent that the most obvious alternative energy source faces a strange future due to taxation impositions on it that owners of cars using conventional energy sources are not. The debate of whether we should have a carbon tax may or may not be off topic, but the issue of taxation of the main existing alternative energy for cars is, I suggest, on topic. The irony that such a tax is supposed to help the environment is more than extraordinary. If governments tax the alternatives and not the existing, what future will alternative energy technology have? What incentives will there be not just for the design of such vehicles, but also for the infrastructure needed to support it?

I still believe that technology will overcome the issues we see as major problems. But will that technology be suitable for places such as Australia with vast distances between towns- maybe, maybe not. Either way, I would not be too concerned just yet. We just need the powers that be to stop meddling with things they know little about- instead, they should be adopt a more benign role

 

[stilson]

The technology is only half of the battle, the way we use it is just as important.
1 person drives a 2 tonne 7 seater an hour into work and an hour home again.
I don't care what electrogreentech the car runs on, riding my petrol motorcycle 10 min to work and back is better for the environment.

Our fridges pour heat into our houses and then we move the heat outside with air conditioners and then we use more power to heat our water, am I the only one who sees how stupid our use of energy is?

Housing can be built to sustain a constant, comfortable temperature inside with almost no energy consumption yet the last house I saw built had a 26kW air conditioning system!

We ship things halfway around the world instead of making things here, and boil 1700ml of water to make a 250ml cuppa tea.

I've no doubt we will have the technology, but will we be smart enough to use it?

 

[NachaLuva]

I still believe that technology will overcome the issues we see as major problems. But will that technology be suitable for places such as Australia with vast distances between towns- maybe, maybe not.

Without a doubt yes. Technology almost has a life of its own, filling any niche it comes across. If there is a need for batteries to provide great performance PLUS have 5000km range, then it will happen. Simple. As the internet constantly shows, a need will be met.

As for the governments staying out of environmental strategies, they need to be involved. without government control, mega corporations will be in control...we all know what happens then! The GFC is proof that deregulation of corporate laws is dangerous & doomed.

It is a shame that green technology is being taxed in the form of hybrid cars, if that is actually happening. I'm hopeful that is an oversight & will be remedied.

The technology is only half of the battle, the way we use it is just as important.
1 person drives a 2 tonne 7 seater an hour into work and an hour home again.
We ship things halfway around the world instead of making things here, and boil 1700ml of water to make a 250ml cuppa tea.

I've no doubt we will have the technology, but will we be smart enough to use it?

2 excellent examples I think of daily...
You're absolutely right, great technology is useless if it isnt utilised...thats the whole point of the carbon tax. Business simply wont make substantial cuts in their energy consumption unless they are given a significant incentive...Make cuts or go out of business!

Great inventions are always born of necessity...the carbon tax provides the necessity...

 

[Rally]

When I bought my block of land, and then chose a house design, I went to considerable length to make it as warm in winter as cool in summer as possible. What I could not do was overcome humidity, which affects me quite badly. So I use the A/C in summer mainly for that. It staggers me how little thought people put into their house design, it's orientation and so on. I studied the design almost every night for months, from ensuring the main areas of the house were on the far side of the sun in the afternoon to working out the sequence of light switches so when I came home at night I could walk along and turn one light on and the other off without walking backwards and forward in the dark, to making sure the garage was big enough to work on the cars.

The technology is only half of the battle, the way we use it is just as important.
1 person drives a 2 tonne 7 seater an hour into work and an hour home again.
I don't care what electrogreentech the car runs on, riding my petrol motorcycle 10 min to work and back is better for the environment.

Our fridges pour heat into our houses and then we move the heat outside with air conditioners and then we use more power to heat our water, am I the only one who sees how stupid our use of energy is?

Housing can be built to sustain a constant, comfortable temperature inside with almost no energy consumption yet the last house I saw built had a 26kW air conditioning system!

We ship things halfway around the world instead of making things here, and boil 1700ml of water to make a 250ml cuppa tea.

I've no doubt we will have the technology, but will we be smart enough to use it?

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday ST & Rally

The technology is only half of the battle, the way we use it is just as important.
1 person drives a 2 tonne 7 seater an hour into work and an hour home again.
I don't care what electrogreentech the car runs on, riding my petrol motorcycle 10 min to work and back is better for the environment.

. . . SNIP

I've no doubt we will have the technology, but will we be smart enough to use it?

Unlikely. Basically our species is not very intelligent. I do not exclude myself from this statement.

However, for almost all the time I worked in the CBD (most of my working life when employed by others - 20 years total, less 2 years working in the 'burbs), I caught public transport to and from work. Passed one of my degrees studying on trains and buses ...

When I bought my block of land, and then chose a house design, I went to considerable length to make it as warm in winter as cool in summer as possible. What I could not do was overcome humidity, which affects me quite badly. So I use the A/C in summer mainly for that. It staggers me how little thought people put into their house design, it's orientation and so on. I studied the design almost every night for months, from ensuring the main areas of the house were on the far side of the sun in the afternoon to working out the sequence of light switches so when I came home at night I could walk along and turn one light on and the other off without walking backwards and forward in the dark, to making sure the garage was big enough to work on the cars.

Good for you.
We put similar thought into a house we designed and built near Apollo Bay.

It took me 4.5 years of searching to find the house we currently live in. Printed out the 'brochure' of something like 150 others, and must have looked at some thousands ... (I am NEVER moving again ... we had been in our previous home for 28 years!).

This house suits us well. It is well insulated, with its long side facing due North. When we moved here, the energy bills were the same as the far smaller house we had sold. It was approximately half the floor area. The energy bills have increased by some 60~80% over 6 years ... Almost ALL of this increase is down to the government subsidising extremely inefficient and basically useless solar and wind energy installations ...

The only environmentally questionable things are that it has a garden (!!); and a small swimming pool. The pool pumps use quite a lot of power ...

With a basic 2KW CFCL high temperature fuel cell unit, we would be self sufficient for power (our average power use is around 1.6 KWH per day); and this unit would provide us with "free" hot water as a by-product.
It would also have the advantage of producing excess power at peak load times (we do not use much power at peak load times as a general rule), therefore assisting with provision of some baseload power when it is actually needed.

I would be quite prepared to spring for the entire $8,000 for one of these (installed, and unsubsidised) purely for the benefits to the environment. I am not even allowed to do this in Victoria. Unsubsidised payback period is less than 8 years.

These units make the generation of power some 70~86% more efficient than that from a centralised gas-fired power station. They use the grid power to start (24 to 48 hours), a connection to town gas, and a connection to a water supply. Heat produced by the fuel cell can provide unlimited hot water for a household.

Once the unit is running, it does not need any power running to it. It effectively becomes a big uninterruptible power supply, supplying its own power.

[EDIT]

Forgot to mention that one could use the overnight capacity to charge an electric plug-in vehicle ... Unlike the sun, which goes "down" at night; nor the wind which drops for about an hour before to an hour after sunrise and sunset, with these CFCL units there is basically constant, regulated power 24/7.

They are also absolutely safe, as free Hydrogen is never available to provide any "big bangs" ...

[end edit]

What a shame that we cannot connect such a unit in Victoria, as it is unlawful to do so ...

 

[fredsub]

What a shame that we cannot connect such a unit in Victoria, as it is unlawful to do so ...

where do you get that it is unlawful ?

apart from you won't get subsidies or RECS and must comply by regulations as per gas appliance, and that your electricity distributor may refuse to connect it to the grid
- essentially its a generator where they will always be buying electricity from you, you don't need them and in the bigger picture they don't
need your piddly amount of generated power to be forced to buy - whats stopping you ?

IMO, I like it but its a bit expensive, see fuel cells can be a bit sensitive to
contamination and I guess that its life cycle is yet to be fully determined, thus their preference to be selling the units as demonstration installations.

My current favored idea would be to use a stacked TEG (thermo-electric generators), probably only a maximum net efficiency of feasibly 42% but thats way better than running a gas generator + no moving parts to wear
and no noise etc. And its more determinable to get a 25year life cycle.
combine with solar and lead batteries and maybe could work a home off the grid.
If you run it 24/7 so that you recharge a electric vehicle, this might be a viable alternative.

However it just goes to show what an extensive enumeration of solutions are required if at all presently possible, as an alternative to that simple and convenient source of energy we have in the form of liquid fuel. Its a very hard act to replace.

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Fred

where do you get that it is unlawful ?

apart from you won't get subsidies or RECS and must comply by regulations as per gas appliance, and that your electricity distributor may refuse to connect it to the grid
- essentially its a generator where they will always be buying electricity from you, you don't need them and in the bigger picture they don't
need your piddly amount of generated power to be forced to buy - whats stopping you ?

The unit has to be connected to the grid in order to start initially.
The electricity company will not connect them to the grid (except as "demo" units ... These are in mass production elsewhere in the world, yet Victoria needs "demo" units??).
That minor detail makes it unlawful to use one ...

IMO, I like it but its a bit expensive, see fuel cells can be a bit sensitive to
contamination and I guess that its life cycle is yet to be fully determined, thus their preference to be selling the units as demonstration installations.

My current favored idea would be to use a stacked TEG (thermo-electric generators), probably only a maximum net efficiency of feasibly 42% but thats way better than running a gas generator + no moving parts to wear
and no noise etc. And its more determinable to get a 25year life cycle.
combine with solar and lead batteries and maybe could work a home off the grid.
If you run it 24/7 so that you recharge a electric vehicle, this might be a viable alternative.

However it just goes to show what an extensive enumeration of solutions are required if at all presently possible, as an alternative to that simple and convenient source of energy we have in the form of liquid fuel. Its a very hard act to replace.

The whole point of the high temperature fuel cells is that they are all of the above, but around 86% efficiency (when using the 'waste' heat to heat one's hot water). Low temperature fuel cells don't reach anything like this level of efficiency.

 

[fredsub]

Gidday Fred



The unit has to be connected to the grid in order to start initially.
The electricity company will not connect them to the grid (except as "demo" units ... These are in mass production elsewhere in the world, yet Victoria needs "demo" units??).

That minor detail makes it unlawful to use one ...

I see no technical reason why the thing can't work backed up by a big enough battery storage off-grid.

Additionally you are being a bit disingenuous with your use of unlawful here. For something to be unlawful means there is the potential of being charged for an unlawful act and face a court.
I see no impediment to buying one of these and using one, you won't go to goal.

What your really complaining about is that a new law needs to be billed to force the distributor to buy electricity from this device and until that happens they won't, and why should they ? look at the farce that the solar
feed-in tarrif is. For all the billions spent on home solar subsidies, not much less coal is being burnt by the base-load generators.

However this device is probably a much better/reliable source of power and
not reliant on the Sun and possibly could be made to deliver on demand.
Trouble is billions have already been spent on Solar, the money tree is only so big.

 

[Ratbag]

I see no technical reason why the thing can't work backed up by a big enough battery storage off-grid.

Additionally you are being a bit disingenuous with your use of unlawful here. For something to be unlawful means there is the potential of being charged for an unlawful act and face a court.
I see no impediment to buying one of these and using one, you won't go to goal.

What your really complaining about is that a new law needs to be billed to force the distributor to buy electricity from this device and until that happens they won't, and why should they ? look at the farce that the solar
feed-in tarrif is. For all the billions spent on home solar subsidies, not much less coal is being burnt by the base-load generators.

However this device is probably a much better/reliable source of power and
not reliant on the Sun and possibly could be made to deliver on demand.
Trouble is billions have already been spent on Solar, the money tree is only so big.

If it against the law to connect the unit to the grid, and it is, I would have thought that this makes connection of it to the grid "unlawful" ...
Nothing disingenuous about that.

Look up the various Acts that allow connection of devices to the grid; and specify what allowed devices are. You may just find them instructive as to how obstructive our governments can be ...

The batteries haven't been whelped (AFAIK) that can start one of these high temperature fuel cells running. Once they are running, they supply their own power needed to keep themselves running - they do not require batteries once they are running.

I don't even care about feed-in tariffs. I have done my sums assuming zero feed-in tariff.

May I suggest that you read the information provided on CFCL's web site?
They do have a lot of info there; and very interesting stuff it is (to me, in any event ... ). Their site is as convoluted as hell IMO, but that's their problem.

CFCL made it very clear that they are not looking for government hand-outs (like every other form of "alternative" energy ... ). They merely want to be able to manufacture and install units here lawfully ... Seems that was just too hard for the previous government, and the current government has been left a "State of Bankruptcy" by the ineptness and profligacy of the previous government.