Alternative energy sources for cars & other purposes

[NachaLuva]

Sorry to be so rough on you NL, but there are holes in what is being said on this subject that one could easily fly a 767 through ...

Dont apologise RB, it is your logic that has the massive holes...Titanic is a better example, both in size & outcome!

Meanwhile, products like the high temperature ceramic fuel cells are designed and built and ready to install TODAY.
They may not be "perfect", but they lead to approximately 70~85% improvements in efficiency of our use of fossil fuels, with a similar reduction in emissions.

Thankyou...at last something that makes sense. NEW technology....

How far do you think that solar power gets at 240V? EVEN IF it were useful, the transmission losses are appalling ...

My point exactly... energy micro production is the key, not massive power plant like you suggest. Each house, office, factory, in fact any building of any type down to a long drop, should (& eventually will when nuclear power mad fools are silenced) have their OWN power production. Hence, ZERO transmission losses, energy consumed at the source & produced as it is needed with minimal loss. That is green power!!!!!!!

The high temperature ceramic fuel cells are a great start, the next step would be renewable fuels. Personally, I like the ethanol fuel created from organic rubbish. It removes our horrible rubbish dumps, most of which is organic, it replaces fossil fuels & its emission is H2O...perfect! Now to pour funds into R&D to make it mainstream energy.

Have you seen the DeLorean in Back to the Future. Although science fiction, it uses organic rubbish (& 1 can of cola lol) to fuel the car. Funnily enough, that IS the future...the REAL future!

 

[Ratbag]

Has any single one of Flannery's alarmist predictions about the weather and climate change ever come true? Not that I am aware of.

I recall him saying that the current weather patterns (the same as the weather patterns Australia had in my young adulthood ... ) would never occur again ... Oh dear.

He has cost the state of Victoria some $25~28 Bn for a desalination plant that we didn't need, and cannot afford. So now we see the funding cuts to pay for it - TAFE being but one example. Where do you think this money comes from? Some kind of magic money tree?
I can think of lots of ways to spend $25Bn to benefit our community other than by wasting it on this kind of reaction to alarmist, end-of-the-world prophecies from people with about as much objectivity as a fundamentalist religious preacher ... Free contraceptives would be a start ...

Just BTW, I have university level education in chemistry, maths, physics, geology and zoology.
Leaving aside completely an undergraduate degree with double majors in psychology (plus 3 years of statistical maths, experimental and research design ... ); politics (philosophy and political science); Law.

Other major sequences in economics, English.

Post-graduate degree in accounting and Law, plus two professional qualifications.

Not wishing to suggest for an instant that this makes my opinions worth more than those of any other reasonably intelligent, well educated, well informed person - merely correcting the implicit slur that you made in a prior post.

I would also suggest that you READ the page about Dinorwig that you have so selectively quoted from ...

I note that you failed to quote (or notice?) the proviso at the head of the page that states:

" This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it has insufficient inline citations. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations. (July 2011)

I have a number of other more complete references about this project, but given your expressed desire not to read things for yourself, I thought I might keep it simple - the one page "executive summary".

If you also read what you have quoted back at me (I had already read it; and gave you the reference for it ... remember?), you will find that the Wikipedia article is self contradictory. It is also wrong about a few things, but you wanted the 'skinny' version of things, so I gave it to you.

You may also recall that I have previously stated that while this process used at Dinorwig and other such facilities is inherently inefficient, it uses power that would otherwise be wasted to do the pumping ... Baseload power output cannot easily be varied, so may as well use it for something productive ...

I went to enormous trouble to provide you with explicit references in the climate change thread, but it is apparent that you read few if any of them. So why waste my time, yet again?

 

[Ratbag]

Belief vs knowing ...

Just BTW, believing something is never a substitute for knowing as much as one can about that thing.

This is always the case, regardless of whether one's belief turns out to be correct or not.

Belief that is not founded on the facts as best they can be ascertained is no better than prejudice; also regardless of whether that belief happens to be correct or not.

Just a minor epistemological point that needs to be made ...
All too often, as it turns out ... .

 

[NachaLuva]

Nuclear Vandalism (Nuclear Power)

RB, that Wikipedia site was one one YOU provided. If it was flawed you should not have used it, esp with a background in law.

So we agree on the desalination plant being a waste of money...I'm glad we can agree on something lol

Yes, in the climate change thread, you supplied copious amounts of links to websites. Again, dont point someone in a vague direction of some information you want them to read, instead copy & paste the specific paragraphs you need. Then provide a link for further reading if needed.

You may also recall that I have previously stated that while this process used at Dinorwig and other such facilities is inherently inefficient, it uses power that would otherwise be wasted to do the pumping ... Baseload power output cannot easily be varied, so may as well use it for something productive ...

In this site YOU provided, it says:
"One of the alternatives would be to be to have spare capacity from conventional power stations running part loaded - spinning reserve, hence at lower efficiency than otherwise, and thus capable of being rapidly run up to full load."

It appears baseload CAN be easily varied!

John, it seems we will never agree on nuclear power. I find it abhorrent, and anyone who supports it offensive. I feel they, well shall I say I dont approve of their reasoning or their morals.
I know you are an intelligent guy, also a very nice, decent bloke, so I find your support of nuclear vandalism (power) to be frustrating in the extreme.

I think it would be wisest if I refrain from commenting further in this thread, as i know the inevitable result

John, you are a great bloke, lets just agree to disagree...

 

[Ratbag]

RB, that Wikipedia site was one one YOU provided. If it was flawed you should not have used it, esp with a background in law.

Res ipsa loquiter (the thing speaks for itself).
I expected you to read it.
ALL of it, including the caveat on the page itself.
Basic research and analysis technique, IMNSHO.
Read, the source; don't skim over it ...
It is a reasonable assumption on my part that someone trained in the disciplines of science will be familiar with the basics of the 'Scientific Method'.

So we agree on the desalination plant being a waste of money...I'm glad we can agree on something lol

Yes. Hopefully based on the facts of the flawed assumptions upon which its construction was contemplated, and undertaken ...

Yes, in the climate change thread, you supplied copious amounts of links to websites. Again, dont point someone in a vague direction of some information you want them to read, instead copy & paste the specific paragraphs you need. Then provide a link for further reading if needed.

Not up to me to pre-digest anything for anyone.
I am more than happy to provide the references for anyone to read and evaluate, in their entirety.
The moment I start selectively quoting from a source I am in grave danger of putting a certain "spin" on it - in my vocabulary, "spin" = "lying"; whether intentional (usually the case), or unintentionally (by only quoting what I see that supports my own position).

Actually properly informing oneself is one's own responsibility; not someone else's ... Basic duty of any human adult, to the best of their individual capacity.

As I previously stated in the climate change thread, it took me some 6 months (part time - probably a couple of months full time) to read all that information. At the end of it, I felt that I was able to form a view on the subject with some degree of certainty that I was reasonably well informed from a wide variety of sources.

As one of my postgraduate lecturers said to me of another student: "With the best will in the world, I cannot learn it for him. Even if I could, it wouldn't help him understand it, and I already know it ... ".

There is no quick and easy route to knowledge that I know of.
Only the hard and long road of personal seeking and endeavour.

 

[taza]

I'm all for electric cars. I haven't read much into hydrogen but I do see potential gain there.
With electric though think for offroading... Instant torque from 0rpm. No need for lockers or LSD's. No gearing just one gear thats stop or go. Very little to break or go wrong unlike with cars now. But again then life will be boring and unchallenging. Part the reason I have a manual over auto. Sure you have no cltch to burn but it makes driving and offroading boring.

Taza

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Taza

I'm all for electric cars. I haven't read much into hydrogen but I do see potential gain there.
With electric though think for offroading... Instant torque from 0rpm. No need for lockers or LSD's. No gearing just one gear thats stop or go. Very little to break or go wrong unlike with cars now. But again then life will be boring and unchallenging. Part the reason I have a manual over auto. Sure you have no cltch to burn but it makes driving and offroading boring.

Taza

They all use CVTs mate ...
Not hard to burn these very seriously ...

And the torque curve is nothing like from zero, AFAIK ...

Have to ask my mate in Adelaide. He has a Prius. Technically minded.

He likes it, but reckons it isn't likely to replace an APC anytime soon ...

 

[taza]

You can have an electric car cheap.... like this

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCSNCs7bwCw&feature=related"]Building an electric car - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube[/ame]

 

[stilson]

£6000 is hardly cheap.

I can't wait until my daughter needs her electric ride-along Car upgraded.

A couple of big Lipo batteries and a brushless helicopter motor or 4.

 

[NachaLuva]

They all use CVTs mate ...
Not hard to burn these very seriously ...

And the torque curve is nothing like from zero, AFAIK ...

Have to ask my mate in Adelaide. He has a Prius. Technically minded.

He likes it, but reckons it isn't likely to replace an APC anytime soon ...

From a previous post:


From https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/be...peed-machines/

Rimac Concept One: quad motor; 1,088HP; "The brainchild of automotive designer and successful entrepreneur Mate Rimac, the battery-powered Croatian super-car is capable of churning out the equivalent of 1,088 horsepower thanks in large part to its 92-kWh battery powering four sets of electric motors planted at each wheel. What we’re left with is a car that is capable traveling 372 miles on a single charge, can hit 0-62 mph in less than three seconds, and effortlessly reaches a top speed just below 190 mph"
PG Eleketrus: "0-62 time that clocks in at under three seconds, and a top speed of 155 mph"; Lotus based chassis.
Lighting GT: 300KW; <5sec

Also:
Audi R8 e-tron: 230 kW and 500 lb-ft of torque with an estimated 0-63 mph sprint time of 4.8 seconds
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Arcspeed Sports: [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]mid-mounted electric motor and controller that is over 98% efficient and delivering 522Nm of torque directly to the rear wheels: 0-100kmh in 3.8 sec[/FONT]
Infiniti: 402HP, 0-100kmh in 4sec

The Rimac for example has 4 engines, 1 on each wheel. Ie, no transmission!
We all know bout quad cams, rotary fans know bout quad rotors...but QUAD ENGINES
Electric motors develop maximum torque virtually from zero revs.
Some electric cars do use transmissions to achiever greater acceleration thru torque amplification, also higher top speed.

Taza, depending on the vehicle design, you may still need lockers etc. Your typical electric car of the future will likely have a single motor with a transmission & diffs, basically the same as we have now just the engine & fuel is different. Plus energy regeneration instead of wasteful brakes. More exotic cars will have multiple engines like the Rimac.

I will miss the sound of the exhaust as the engine works hard, but will love the peace & quiet as I enjoy the bush as its meant to be enjoyed. Plus no nasty fumes. The only pollution will be the sound of Taza's stereo full blast :rotfl:

 

[Ratbag]

From a previous post:


From https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/be...peed-machines/

Rimac Concept One: quad motor; 1,088HP; "The brainchild of automotive designer and successful entrepreneur Mate Rimac, the battery-powered Croatian super-car is capable of churning out the equivalent of 1,088 horsepower thanks in large part to its 92-kWh battery powering four sets of electric motors planted at each wheel. What we’re left with is a car that is capable traveling 372 miles on a single charge, can hit 0-62 mph in less than three seconds, and effortlessly reaches a top speed just below 190 mph"
PG Eleketrus: "0-62 time that clocks in at under three seconds, and a top speed of 155 mph"; Lotus based chassis.
Lighting GT: 300KW; <5sec

Also:
Audi R8 e-tron: 230 kW and 500 lb-ft of torque with an estimated 0-63 mph sprint time of 4.8 seconds
[FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Arcspeed Sports: [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]mid-mounted electric motor and controller that is over 98% efficient and delivering 522Nm of torque directly to the rear wheels: 0-100kmh in 3.8 sec[/FONT]
Infiniti: 402HP, 0-100kmh in 4sec

The Rimac for example has 4 engines, 1 on each wheel. Ie, no transmission!
We all know bout quad cams, rotary fans know bout quad rotors...but QUAD ENGINES
Electric motors develop maximum torque virtually from zero revs.
Some electric cars do use transmissions to achiever greater acceleration thru torque amplification, also higher top speed.

Taza, depending on the vehicle design, you may still need lockers etc. Your typical electric car of the future will likely have a single motor with a transmission & diffs, basically the same as we have now just the engine & fuel is different. Plus energy regeneration instead of wasteful brakes. More exotic cars will have multiple engines like the Rimac.

I will miss the sound of the exhaust as the engine works hard, but will love the peace & quiet as I enjoy the bush as its meant to be enjoyed. Plus no nasty fumes. The only pollution will be the sound of Taza's stereo full blast :rotfl:

It is simply amazing what a battery can do if one overcharges it a bit. What's called excessive surface charge. e.g. an 1.2V NiMH dry cell can be charged to nearly 1.5V, but it will not hold that charge for more than a couple of hours unused. Boy, can it be a powerhouse for a short time if one does use it! BUT not for very long ...

I would like to see what sort of performance was obtained after (say) 10~20 minutes running at 25%, 50% and 100% speed (or maybe after 25 kms at each of those speeds).

IOW, a reasonably well controlled scientific experiment, rather than some headline figures produced by a carefully prepared concept car ...

After all, the winner of the Bathurst 1000 is the car that crosses the line first after 1,000 kms, not the one that does the fastest first 1/4 lap ...

 

[Rally]

I haven't been following this thread, so I have not read most of the posts. But I read today that the carbon tax will hit only the owners of so called green cars. Those running petrol/diesel or gas powered cars will be least affected! Gee- that makes sense!

 

[thunder039]

I haven't been following this thread, so I have not read most of the posts. But I read today that the carbon tax will hit only the owners of so called green cars. Those running petrol/diesel or gas powered cars will be least affected! Gee- that makes sense!

makes about as much sense as australian politics :lol:

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Rally

I haven't been following this thread, so I have not read most of the posts. But I read today that the carbon tax will hit only the owners of so called green cars. Those running petrol/diesel or gas powered cars will be least affected! Gee- that makes sense!

The carbon tax has nothing whatsoever to do with "saving the environment", IMNSHO.
Also IMNSHO it IS a thinly disguised attempt at wealth redistribution in line with the basic tenets of International Socialism ideology.

Unfortunately, again IMNSHO, it will not achieve this latter aim either.
The impost will fall directly and most heavily on those least able to afford any increase in charges for basic services, and this tax increases the input costs to all of those at the most basic and fundamental level imaginable.

Who pays the electricity bill at a major shopping centre? The purchaser of goods and services, of course.

It is an impost on the "rich" and an unmitigated disaster for the poor and disadvantaged.
Zero benefit to the environment AFAICS.
How wonderful.

The lunatics are now running the asylum, and badly at that!

 

[NachaLuva]

Who pays the electricity bill at a major shopping centre? The purchaser of goods and services, of course.

I was hoping I wouldnt have to explain basic economics to you RB, but it is the RETAILERS who pay the electricity bill!!!

You are attempting to say that these costs are passed onto the consumer, however you have completely failed to recognize that all businesses must reduce their overheads to stay in business...incl electricity bills!

The purpose of the carbon tax is of course not purely environmental...no government objective is ever simple.

If the shopping centre & retailers dont reduce their power consumption, they will be hit hard financially, causing them to raise their prices. By doing this however, they will reduce the number of customers. If they raise their prices too much, they will go out of business.

Basic supply & demand!

The carbon tax puts pressure on all business to dramatically cut their energy consumption. Those who dont will either absorb their increased overheads & go out of business, or pass on their increased overheads & go out of business.

The carbon tax is certainly flawed, but so is the logic of anyone who believes it wont dramatically reduce energy consumption.

As someone on a very low income, I will be particularly hit hard by the carbon tax, however I am a full supporter of it. The reason?

I can see past myself!!!

I realise there is a whole world out there...a living planet that we are choking! there are future generations who will despise those of our generation who seek to harm them before they are even born. Those who seek to keep the current global garbage dump unchanged will be hated with a passion. They will be despised with a venom.

How dare ANYONE be so selfish to wreck the planet, to condemn future generations, just for a few dollars

And before you start on "reduce the population", yes you have a point. But be realistic...that aint gonna happen! Choose your battles wisely...dont try to fight a war that can never be won. You wanna reduce the population? Sell your house and travel to India, where parents MUST have as many children as possible to increase the likelyhood that they will be supported in their old age. There are no pensions in India RB. Sell everything you own, move over there and start your own elderly care charity...then you will have done something to reduce the worlds population.

Empty diatribe will do nothing except p**s off people like myself
Whingeing about a few dollars, instead of making an example to the rest of the world, to show us as leaders not pitiful little minnows in a sea full of sharks, will just make me sick

 

[Ratbag]

NL wrote ... a lot of "empty diatribe" against anyone (me included) who does not view the future and well-being of our planet through the same blinkered eyes .

Well I am not even going to try to explain basic costing ...
Most already understand it.

Very simply, if the costs associated with running a business go up, they have to either become more efficient (compete with labour rates in India, China and Indonesia??) or up their prices to compensate, including GST, stamp duties, etc, etc.

BTW the retailer doesn't pay the bill, the shopping centre does ...
The on-cost is added to rent and outgoings on the bill to the retailer ...
Then the purchaser pays the retailer by way of increased charges for the goods and services purchased. If not today, then next billing cycle ...

Magic money trees, anyone?

What a joke, and as usual, the poorest pay the biggest price.

All this from a "government" who are supposed to represent the interests of the poor, disadvantaged and disconnected in our society. This makes the joke one in extremely poor taste at best, and a criminal offence in reality.

Thank the gods and good management, I am not in this position, even though I can see that this will increase my electricity bills by roughly $400 p.a. for no benefit of any description to the environment!!

Of course I could make a fairly complete list of the goods and services that will increase.
It would look nothing like the BS being spruiked by our joke of a federal government.
A federal government that only has a mandate NOT to bring in a carbon tax ...

 

[NachaLuva]

Very simply, if the costs associated with running a business go up, they have to either become more efficient (compete with labour rates in India, China and Indonesia??) or up their prices to compensate, including GST, stamp duties, etc, etc.

Bingo! Thankyou RB, that is EXACTLY the point I was making!

Supply & demand! Crikey, I learnt this stuff in yr9!

BTW the retailer doesn't pay the bill, the shopping centre does ...
The on-cost is added to rent and outgoings on the bill to the retailer ...
Then the purchaser pays the retailer by way of increased charges for the goods and services purchased. If not today, then next billing cycle ...

If the shopping centre raises rents too much, the retailer will set up elsewhere. So the SC will either absorb their increased overheads & go out of business, or pass on their increased overheads & go out of business. Supply & demand!

If a retailer sets up in an independent shop & doesnt keep power consumption down, they will either absorb their increased overheads & go out of business, or pass on their increased overheads & go out of business.

If a factory doesnt keep power consumption down, it will either absorb their increased overheads & go out of business, or pass on their increased overheads & go out of business.

If an office building doesnt keep power consumption down, they will either absorb their increased overheads & go out of business, or pass on their increased overheads & go out of business.

If a mining conglomerate doesnt keep power consumption down, they will either absorb their increased overheads & go out of business, or pass on their increased overheads & go out of business, unless of course they lobby the government for billions of dollars in "assistance"...oh, wait...that's already the case!

But why am I explaining all this to you RB, you know all this already? Oh yeah...you CHOOSE to ignore the basics in preference to finding someone to blame. Blame the government, blame the carbon tax, blame me, blame the population, blame everyone & everything thing except the cause...US!

We are to blame RB.

For too long we have used the planet as a resource to be raped & plundered, then to be used as a dumping ground. It is our fault for not speaking up. It is our fault for allowing this to happen.

Whether you like it or not I really dont care. I just simply dont! The age of the dinosaurs is over, green is moving in!

The momentum is gaining, from capitalistic goliaths like th US (no offense, its just the prime mover for the world's economy) down to individuals, a sense of environmental responsibility is is being created. Not just for future generations, but FOR US! Why do you think cancer rates have skyrocketed? Only a few decades ago, endometriosis was an unknown disease! Now it is prevalent.

All because of the crap we put into the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. Even the b****y containers we put our food into leach out chemicals that poison us. And you worry bout a few measly dollars? Seriously???

 

[Ratbag]

AND YET you appear to oppose population control??

I have no objection whatsoever to spending "a few measly dollars" on anything that helps our planet, because I am genuinely concerned for its future.

NOT because of some weird ideological stance, but because of using the brain that I am equipped with and assessing the evidence available ...

That evidence comes down pretty unequivocally on the side of pollution by having far too many humans on this planet being bad, and potentially avoidable; and it also suggests that we as a species have little if any effect on the climate of this planet. This role goes to our Sun, not to us puny, self-important, polluting 'bacteria'.

Ideas are not dangerous to us and our planet and all the creatures we share it with; BUT ideologies are plain bloody deadly ...

BTW, why do you so assiduously avoid addressing any questions directed at your ideological stance/s?

 

[NachaLuva]

AND YET you appear to oppose population control??

Again, your assumptions are wrong. I would welcome population control...however I understand the reasons why it wont happen voluntarily. It will unfortunately occur on a dramatic level if the climate crashes. A scenario that is very possible. Read up on permafrost & hydro-methane, just 2 gigantic climate changing processes that are already starting to occur.

That evidence comes down pretty unequivocally on the side of pollution by having far too many humans on this planet being bad, and potentially avoidable; and it also suggests that we as a species have little if any effect on the climate of this planet. This role goes to our Sun, not to us puny, self-important, polluting 'bacteria'.

dear oh dear, I get so sick of explaining this ad nauseum!

What do you think reflects the sun's energy?...Clouds!!!

What do you think produces a lot of clouds? ...Trees, in particular forests like the Amazon

What do you think absorbs the sun's radiation? ...Carbon Dioxide.

I dont care if you wish to remain ignorant. Blame the sun all you want. The age of the dinosaurs like yourself is ending, & the age of environmentally aware people like myself is upon us! Times are changing...change too or get left behind.

By the way, if we are such insignificant specs on the earths surface, then where are the vast tracts of tropical rainforest in Australia? There is less than 2% left compared to when the Aborigines started fire farming, less now thanks to the white fella.

Amazing how insignificant specs can have such a significant effect!

BTW, why do you so assiduously avoid addressing any questions directed at your ideological stance/s?

I wasnt aware you have asked me ANY questions???

However, before you do, make sure that they are intelligent & reasonable, as I am growing very weary of explaining the obvious to you...

 

[Ratbag]

NL

Things that are "blindingly obvious" to you appear not to be supported by the evidence as currently available, AFAICS after actually bothering to read ALL the information from ALL sides of the (non-)debate ...

May I respectfully suggest that if you wish to use the forum as a platform for your ideological beliefs, that you seek a more suitable site on which to do so?
This site is about Subaru motor vehicles, not climate change "science", or otherwise ...

BTW, the very fact that you seem incapable of discerning comments made that question your ideology is just another indicator to me of how blind that ideology is. Sorry to be so blunt.