Taza's Forester engine options

[taza]

Well the foz engine has almost had the bomb. With the burning oil issue since I got it(No it wasn't me, I was told it burnt oil when I bought it), it's now at the point of burning 1L of thick 20w50 oil every 300-500km! It's fouled all the sensors, runs like a dying dog and fuel economy is around the 20l per 100km mark
I can wait for a bullbar plus I would rather a decent engine! At the present time my L-Series with it's stock EA82 and 13" rims will leave the Forester for dead in a drag race :lol: ......Out of all seriousness!

When my L-Series is sold I should then have enough money to sort out a new engine :ebiggrin: Now here are my options.

1. EJ20 long block and swap over most of my sensors, new timming belt and w/p, manifold, a/c, altenator, etc... Max cost of around $1500

2. Buy an EJ25 (from 97 Outback) which I can get for $200 inc wiring & CPU (computer for the non technical people). It was in an accident and one of my friends bought the whole car. It only had 180,000km on it with full service history at a dealer(I have seen the log book) and had the timing belt and w/p done just over 10,000km before the crash. Problem is that it has a bent valve on one cylinder due to the impact... a piece of plastic getting between the timing belt and pulley. Since it is out of the car though and so is the wirring the bent valve could be repaired and both head gaskets done while the engine is already out on the ground. That would be reasonably cheap to do, then it's source a new radiator(~$300), get the wirring cut down and installed (~$300), fit the engine myself with help (~$250). All up around $1500 aswell.

3. Save up more money and buy a EJ Turbo half cut (would be just awesome by itself ) ~$2000-2500 just for the half cut then there is doing the timing on it, getting the wirring cut down and installed, then installation of the engine itself.

4. Buy another friends H6 EZ30 half cut from a 2000 Outback with only 29,000km on the clock. Cost $1700. Then headers need to be sourced for it ~$400, then just the usual wirring getting cut down and installed, and the engine installed.

I also have a SC14 supercharger too sitting in the back room of my house...

Any idea or opinions. I am just worried that the EJ25 won't be powerful enough when the car is loaded up

Thanks,
Taza

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Taza

Sorry your donk is in such a bad way, mate.

My thoughts are that you would be more than pleasantly surprised with the EJ25, specially with the SF gearing.

You might have to be a tad careful about how you apply that torque through the LR gear set you have in your SF would be all.

However, I also have concerns about that bent valve. Only way it could get bent is by hitting the piston ... What sort of condition is the piston in? Can you get an optical fibre probe in there to check it out?

The mileage is not so much of a big deal. The 1.8L donk in Roo1 had 234K Kms on it when traded. On a trip to Brisbane just before I traded it in, it used no oil or water in around 4,500 Kms. It was a bit gutless compared with when new (when it was also gutless, just not as ... :iconwink: ); but then, not having replaced or gapped the plugs for about 100K Kms just might have had something to do with that.

When I say "gutless" I mean it would accelerate to around 155 kmh on the flat when fully loaded. It may have gone faster, but would need to wind up to it. When relatively new (around 80K Kms on it), it would accelerate to around 170 kmh, then wind up to around 175 kmh in 5th. It would accelerate to 177kmh when kept in 4th ... IOW, A bit more sluggish than when fully run in and new.

OTOH, my 2.5L N/A Fox, will get from 100 to 160kmh in 5th/HR in a remarkably short time, and distance ... It is a bit heavier than yours, and a bit bigger (more wind resistance ... ), with higher gearing all through.

IF you can do the 2.5 N/A fairly easily, I would reckon that it could be your best option. Just IMHO.

 

[taza]

Gidday Taza

Sorry your donk is in such a bad way, mate.

My thoughts are that you would be more than pleasantly surprised with the EJ25, specially with the SF gearing.

You might have to be a tad careful about how you apply that torque through the LR gear set you have in your SF would be all.

However, I also have concerns about that bent valve. Only way it could get bent is by hitting the piston ... What sort of condition is the piston in? Can you get an optical fibre probe in there to check it out?

The mileage is not so much of a big deal. The 1.8L donk in Roo1 had 234K Kms on it when traded. On a trip to Brisbane just before I traded it in, it used no oil or water in around 4,500 Kms. It was a bit gutless compared with when new (when it was also gutless, just not as ... :iconwink: ); but then, not having replaced or gapped the plugs for about 100K Kms just might have had something to do with that.

When I say "gutless" I mean it would accelerate to around 155 kmh on the flat when fully loaded. It may have gone faster, but would need to wind up to it. When relatively new (around 80K Kms on it), it would accelerate to around 170 kmh, then wind up to around 175 kmh in 5th. It would accelerate to 177kmh when kept in 4th ... IOW, A bit more sluggish than when fully run in and new.

OTOH, my 2.5L N/A Fox, will get from 100 to 160kmh in 5th/HR in a remarkably short time, and distance ... It is a bit heavier than yours, and a bit bigger (more wind resistance ... ), with higher gearing all through.

IF you can do the 2.5 N/A fairly easily, I would reckon that it could be your best option. Just IMHO.

I find the 2.0l in its current state indriveable. Plus with its dead syarter motor and stuffed wheel bearing the L-Series has been my daily driver.
Not sure on the condition of the bent valve but i do know that the engine would start and run on 3 cylinders as I.got to drive it. If I were to buy it I epistle be doing the head gaskets and fixing the valve and any other possible damage. So realistically I wouldnt be spending and more than $500 for a complete running engine and its wiring which seems like a bargin to me. I could then always repare the ej20 myself ad that elude he a good learning curve and either be a spare engine or go in the L-Series if I still have it.

When I firdt got my foz you could put your foot down in 5th doing 100km/hr and it would steadily go upto 160-170. Now in 5th it struggles to get over 120. Has no pulling power underline 4000rpm an fankley has just given me a hatered for small engines!

 

[Rally]

Check your state rego laws. If the 2.5 is allowed- go with that. If the owner is a mate, maybe he'll let you check the heads. Or, maybe the heads from your engine will fit. That will also depend on their condition. Try and use as much of the original bits as you can. If there are differences in the cam gears, that might cause issues unless you swap everything over as you mentioned, including wiring and ECU. But there are always issues with conversions. While you can switch over the engine bay loom- what about the rest of the car? Subaru are generally pretty good in this regard, but just check it out first.

 

[NachaLuva]

Im pretty sure if you fit anything larger than the EJ20 you will need an engineers certificate, incl a EJ20 turbo. I dont think you realise how VERY expensive & difficult that is. It will cost you several thousand dollars, not including the engine conversion itself! Plus many sleepless nights!

You havent mentioned an EJ22...apparently works off the EJ20 ECU & wiring. Still needs engineers cert tho!

I would go with an EJ20 in good condition with the blower on it. If you get pulled over & canaried its easy to pull it off, leaving a standard engine. Even without it I think you would be surprised at a healthy EJ20's performance. Mine is down a bit on power & has a misfire, but it is still able to do a lot. It made it up a seriously steep, loose, rutted & LOOOONG track in Walhalla, some tough dunes in Robe and the biggest test...the Gentle Annie Tr in Bunyip SP. Sure I had to rev its rings off in 1st LR but Matt did it in 1st HR with his SF Foz

 

[d_generate]

Im pretty sure if you fit anything larger than the EJ20 you will need an engineers certificate, incl a EJ20 turbo. I dont think you realise how VERY expensive & difficult that is. It will cost you several thousand dollars, not including the engine conversion itself! Plus many sleepless nights!

You havent mentioned an EJ22...apparently works off the EJ20 ECU & wiring. Still needs engineers cert tho!

I would go with an EJ20 in good condition with the blower on it. If you get pulled over & canaried its easy to pull it off, leaving a standard engine. Even without it I think you would be surprised at a healthy EJ20's performance. Mine is down a bit on power & has a misfire, but it is still able to do a lot. It made it up a seriously steep, loose, rutted & LOOOONG track in Walhalla, some tough dunes in Robe and the biggest test...the Gentle Annie Tr in Bunyip SP. Sure I had to rev its rings off in 1st LR but Matt did it in 1st HR with his SF Foz

A, 2.5 is more than likely a legal swap here.

B, engineering would cost about $600 if he was silly enough to tell the RTA

C, there wouldn't be a cop in WA that would know whether it should have a 2.0L or a 2.5L motor.

D, very very unlikely even insurance would notice.

E, this is not Melbourne, we don't need to put our cars over the pits every year, even then they are that dense they would unlikely notice.

I'd go for the 2.5, the piston will be fine, it's the valves that hit each other and bend.

For the last 8yrs my Liberty has been regoed as a 2.2 automatic and it's a 2L manual that'll pull a flat 13sec quarter.

 

[taza]

Im pretty sure if you fit anything larger than the EJ20 you will need an engineers certificate, incl a EJ20 turbo. I dont think you realise how VERY expensive & difficult that is. It will cost you several thousand dollars, not including the engine conversion itself! Plus many sleepless nights!

You havent mentioned an EJ22...apparently works off the EJ20 ECU & wiring. Still needs engineers cert tho!

I would go with an EJ20 in good condition with the blower on it. If you get pulled over & canaried its easy to pull it off, leaving a standard engine. Even without it I think you would be surprised at a healthy EJ20's performance. Mine is down a bit on power & has a misfire, but it is still able to do a lot. It made it up a seriously steep, loose, rutted & LOOOONG track in Walhalla, some tough dunes in Robe and the biggest test...the Gentle Annie Tr in Bunyip SP. Sure I had to rev its rings off in 1st LR but Matt did it in 1st HR with his SF Foz

As D-gen said it's much different over here. Hell I could have a H6 under the hood and even if a cop looked they would just think its a boxer engine and leave me be. Not like theres and intercooler or turbo or supercharger under there.
A 2.5 there is practically no diff in looks other than the coil pack and throttle body, hell the average person wouldn't know the difference between a Commodore engine and H6! :lol:
I'm not going back to a 2.0l unless it is supercharged as they are still too gutless for the size and weight of the car... even when fully healthy.

Check your state rego laws. If the 2.5 is allowed- go with that. If the owner is a mate, maybe he'll let you check the heads. Or, maybe the heads from your engine will fit. That will also depend on their condition. Try and use as much of the original bits as you can. If there are differences in the cam gears, that might cause issues unless you swap everything over as you mentioned, including wiring and ECU. But there are always issues with conversions. While you can switch over the engine bay loom- what about the rest of the car? Subaru are generally pretty good in this regard, but just check it out first.

That's not a bad idea with the heads :iconwink: Do you think I could just use the EJ25 long block with my sensors and wirring since they are from a similar era? Abit of a franken stein motor it could be.

A, 2.5 is more than likely a legal swap here.

B, engineering would cost about $600 if he was silly enough to tell the RTA

C, there wouldn't be a cop in WA that would know whether it should have a 2.0L or a 2.5L motor.

D, very very unlikely even insurance would notice.

E, this is not Melbourne, we don't need to put our cars over the pits every year, even then they are that dense they would unlikely notice.

I'd go for the 2.5, the piston will be fine, it's the valves that hit each other and bend.

For the last 8yrs my Liberty has been regoed as a 2.2 automatic and it's a 2L manual that'll pull a flat 13sec quarter.

I'm with you all the way here D-Gen! Do you think that I could possibly use the EJ25 long block with the wirring from my EJ20 or is it too much ****ing about? Just do the straight swap?

You still have to take me for a spin in your Liberty sometime too!

 

[Venom]

H6 is sexy. Worth the extra time, money and effort if you have it to spare.

 

[Rally]

If you are keeping your ECU, best to keep the original sensores if in good condition. But, along the way, Subaru changed things on the cam and crank that the sensor reads, which will give info to the computer it won't be able to deal with. Just make sure those sort of things are swapped- if they can be. I've not done that sort of a swap, so it is hard to give you all the information you need. But I would imagine the other sensors- knock sensor and temperature- would all be pretty similar. But check anyway. Everything else such as TPS and injectors and ignition should be simple swaps. So you might end up with the 2.5 long motor, with the inlet manifold, injectors and so on off the 2.5, with 2.0 litre heads. Thing is, I am not sure your 2.0 litre ECU will be up to running a 2.5 and I am not certain the 2.0 litre heads will fit the 2.5.

 

[NachaLuva]

Taza if you can get away with it go the EJ25. Coming from the East I just assume getting caught!

DGen, $600 is just for the engineer to LOOK at the car...then you need to complete everything on his list which would be considerable. When I had my RX3 engineered, I had over 130 items on a car that was in pretty good nick with not a scrap of rust anywhere. You would also need to pay for the brake engineer and dyno...all part of an engineers cert. The cost of the engineer himself is NOT the major cost! But like I said, if you can get away with it go for the 2.5

BTW, Im sure a EJ25 IS a legal swap...with a cert lol

On second thoughts...if finances allow, an H6 would be pretty hard to beat! But a lot more work & moula

 

[d_generate]

Get on RSLC or some of the performance Foz forums, you'll have much more chance of getting the answers you need than here, even try NAISOC, biggest Subi forum in the US/world.

You could also try calling Al from AM Performance in Qld, he built the H6 Foz Dulagarl now owns but has done a million transplants on Subi's.

 

[d_generate]

H6 has way too low an exhaust for a conversion and is not a job for a novice, turbo is lighter, way easier and way cheaper.

It cost me $400 to get mine engineered for the lift kit & rear wheel carrier, all they want to know here is if it's safe or not.

 

[Dulagarl]

H6 has way too low an exhaust for a conversion and is not a job for a novice, turbo is lighter, way easier and way cheaper.

It cost me $400 to get mine engineered for the lift kit & rear wheel carrier, all they want to know here is if it's safe or not.

It is low, but I got the headers cut down on mine to good effect.

BUT

If doing an ez30R conversion, be prepared to fork out for an aftermarket ECU:

see this:

https://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16564

 

[taza]

It is low, but I got the headers cut down on mine to good effect.

BUT

If doing an ez30R conversion, be prepared to fork out for an aftermarket ECU:

see this:

https://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16564

I have read that. Will look past an EZ30 conversion. Next engine swap in 2 years time I guess :biggrin: (When uni is over :iconwink

I think the 2.5 would be alright, certainly better than an EJ20 that my L-Series can flog the hell out of in almost any situation :lol: and people say a stock L-Series is gutless, just drive my Forester

 

[stilson]

I think I saw an ej25 with 120k on it for $600 on gumtee in Perth. Probably a safer bet than a donk with mashed valves.

 

[taza]

I think I saw an ej25 with 120k on it for $600 on gumtee in Perth. Probably a safer bet than a donk with mashed valves.

But no wiring and no garentee on the history of the engine. While I can get this one for $200 inc wiring and replace the one specific valve and the heads, it's then good to go
I could have this one running for the price of that one :iconwink:

 

[d_generate]

May also need to be the right age, I'm not sure if his is 4 bolt or 8 bolt tranny but inlet patterns changed at the same time so something an experienced Subi specialist needs to answer, the guys at Japanese Wholesale in Wangarra could more than likely answer as they are the biggest importers in Perth and also do a lot of engine swaps.

 

[tuckerbag]

May also need to be the right age, I'm not sure if his is 4 bolt or 8 bolt tranny but inlet patterns changed at the same time so something an experienced Subi specialist needs to answer, the guys at Japanese Wholesale in Wangarra could more than likely answer as they are the biggest importers in Perth and also do a lot of engine swaps.

You might use the 2.5 block with your 2.0 heads, save the wiring transplant. As d_generate said, it depends on models.

 

[NachaLuva]

It sounds like you're set on the 2.5. Id strongly suggest do all your research re damage to this engine, compatibility (4 or 8 bolt, etc)...everything you can. The last thing you want is to have the new engine halfway in only to find something wont work.

PS: I would have thought EJ20 heads on a EJ25 would be very restrictive to airflow? Might cause more probs than it solves

 

[Superu_legacy]

EJ20 heads on an EJ25 would be sweet! I have afriend here running that combo on his rally car. So it's a frankenmotor WITH boost!! Its pretty crazy running like 200 WHP and something like 280 ft/pounds of torque.

BUT while I know that's not your application, if the EJ25 heads were stuffed, you could do the EJ20 on the block and get yourself a compression boost. It's feasible and awesome, but would put you in a different category for auto repair/ mods/ knowledge/ and maintenance.

just a thought to put in your mix of thoughts.

good luck and keep on keepin' on, sounds like you've got a multi-layered project!