Teaching:

To correct you, the last time I looked a 1st year teacher gets 47k which then rises up to about 60k in their 4th year - but this is from a dodgy memory and what was told to us at uni about 3 or 4 years ago... really I don't care about the pay at this point - its about getting the job!

I almost applied for a job driving a rubbish collection truck a few weeks back - $70k a year for picking up rubbish from the comfortable cab of a truck without any worry about treating a student wrong and have your own school and the government body that you pay every year for your registration come down on you like a ton of bricks. Lets not mention the parents here either! But all that said, I didn't go for that job in hope of scoring a teaching position soon.

Cheers

Bennie

i got the $52,000 figure from my close friend who is currently studying teaching at uni now.

My wife just wishes for some of the basic things like kids she teaches being toilet trained, being able to speak some form of Enlish and coming to school nearly every day would be a start.

the basics is deffiantly not covered enough! even myself who has recently come out of the school system i can tell you its terrible, they will teach you how to type before to write
 
Hi Taza,

The problem with re-writing the English language in this way is the difficulties it presents in the real world. At work, I receive a spec from an electrical engineer and have to design a system complying with it. While it is at times difficult and frustrating when you are dealing with an engineer who knows less about the subject than I do, it is even worse when their spelling and sentence construction is so poor you are left with a specification that is meaningless and contradictory. I recently had to send back a spec that contained at least one error every paragraph. I could not for the life of me figure out what the engineer was going on about- and I doubt he did either.

The importance of spelling can be critical. In electrical specifications and drawings, there are specs and drawings for both lighting and lightning (protection). When I look through the spec, I am only looking for one as the other is not relevant. Same with the drawings. If the engineer cannot take the time to proof read his own documents, one letter can make significant differences costing lots of money. Yet at times even the drawing title is incorrectly named. If it is issued as a lighting drawing, why would I look at that when with I am not involved in lighting? There are so many drawings released on projects you can't be expected to check for others spelling mistakes

We recently won a government contract as sub contractors. The electrical contractor was responsible for certain work, we were responsible for other work reliant on his work. We won the contract based on reading the drawings and I found a way of reducing costs while still complying with the spec. It did not detract from the quality of the system (The specified system was so poorly designed anyway it would not matter- but that is another story) but in doing so our quote was cheaper and we won the job. The contractor failed to read the drawing correctly and did not consult with us and as a result the work he did was wrong. He had a go at us but when I pointed out what the drawing said, he did not have a leg to stand on.

This is why it is so important that teachers teach people to read and write correctly. In the real world, these things really do matter.

I

Rally I'm guessing you find text message talk hard to read. hi, wats up? btw on the w/e i stole an ss

Something along those lines anyway.
 
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Hi Taza,

The problem with re-writing the English language in this way is the difficulties it presents in the real world. At work, I receive a spec from an electrical engineer and have to design a system complying with it. While it is at times difficult and frustrating when you are dealing with an engineer who knows less about the subject than I do, it is even worse when their spelling and sentence construction is so poor you are left with a specification that is meaningless and contradictory. I recently had to send back a spec that contained at least one error every paragraph. I could not for the life of me figure out what the engineer was going on about- and I doubt he did either.

The importance of spelling can be critical. In electrical specifications and drawings, there are specs and drawings for both lighting and lightning (protection). When I look through the spec, I am only looking for one as the other is not relevant. Same with the drawings. If the engineer cannot take the time to proof read his own documents, one letter can make significant differences costing lots of money. Yet at times even the drawing title is incorrectly named. If it is issued as a lighting drawing, why would I look at that when with I am not involved in lighting? There are so many drawings released on projects you can't be expected to check for others spelling mistakes

We recently won a defence contract as sub contractors. The electrical contractor was responsible for certain work, we were responsible for other work reliant on his work. We won the contract based on reading the drawings and I found a way of reducing costs while still complying with the spec. It did not detract from the quality of the system (The specified system was so poorly designed anyway it would not matter- but that is another story) but in doing so our quote was cheaper and we won the job. The contractor failed to read the drawing correctly and did not consult with us and as a result the work he did was wrong. He had a go at us but when I pointed out what the drawing said, he did not have a leg to stand on.

This is why it is so important that teachers teach people to read and write correctly. In the real world, these things really do matter.

Fair enough Rally, when it's work related I can understand that.
I personally use proper English or try to when it's work or professional related, uni or online(forums). I usually proof read everything I write unless it's in the early hours of the morning and I'm on forums.
However I do use slang and abbreviations in text messages and in person..
 
I see it as the same as driving. How often do you see people not use indicators? They start off thinking that since no one is around, they won't bother. They become a bit lazy and drop their standards. I think this is where by always remembering to use your indicator, it is unnatural not to do so. I think these engineers did the same thing with their specs. Still, writing on forums it is not so critical and often is more a typo than anything else.
 
Gidday Rally

Hi Taza,

The problem with re-writing the English language in this way is the difficulties it presents in the real world. At work, I receive a spec from an electrical engineer and have to design a system complying with it. While it is at times difficult and frustrating when you are dealing with an engineer who knows less about the subject than I do, it is even worse when their spelling and sentence construction is so poor you are left with a specification that is meaningless and contradictory. I recently had to send back a spec that contained at least one error every paragraph. I could not for the life of me figure out what the engineer was going on about- and I doubt he did either.

The importance of spelling can be critical. In electrical specifications and drawings, there are specs and drawings for both lighting and lightning (protection). When I look through the spec, I am only looking for one as the other is not relevant. Same with the drawings. If the engineer cannot take the time to proof read his own documents, one letter can make significant differences costing lots of money. Yet at times even the drawing title is incorrectly named. If it is issued as a lighting drawing, why would I look at that when with I am not involved in lighting? There are so many drawings released on projects you can't be expected to check for others spelling mistakes

We recently won a government contract as sub contractors. The electrical contractor was responsible for certain work, we were responsible for other work reliant on his work. We won the contract based on reading the drawings and I found a way of reducing costs while still complying with the spec. It did not detract from the quality of the system (The specified system was so poorly designed anyway it would not matter- but that is another story) but in doing so our quote was cheaper and we won the job. The contractor failed to read the drawing correctly and did not consult with us and as a result the work he did was wrong. He had a go at us but when I pointed out what the drawing said, he did not have a leg to stand on.

This is why it is so important that teachers teach people to read and write correctly. In the real world, these things really do matter.

Hear, hear.

The same goes for legal and accounting work (and almost everything else for that matter).
Near enough is never good enough.

The NASA example with their Martian probe is a case directly in point.
The descent team were working in metres per second, and the air-bag team were working in feet per second. Hitting the ground at 30 metres per second was not a very good idea when the air-bags were designed for 30 feet per second (or whatever). A billion dollars down the gurgler ... :(
 
Is that fair dinkum? It's inconceivable. In our industry we have project managers to oversee that sort of thing. Maybe NASA should consider getting competent PM's as well.
 
Is that fair dinkum? It's inconceivable. In our industry we have project managers to oversee that sort of thing. Maybe NASA should consider getting competent PM's as well.

AFAIK it is. Bit of a to do about it at the time ... :iconwink:

The same with the Hubble Space Telescope. The most perfect mirror ever made by man, but no one bothered to check the measuring blocks that were used to check that the 'figure' of the mirror was correct.

It was so perfectly out of focus, that the images could be corrected using software. But it got "glasses" in the first servicing mission. An optical correction lens was placed in the light path. That gave a better result.

I have several books on the latter project, and the images taken with this wonderful piece of kit.
 
hi bennie read the article and i dont agree with pay upon performance, bad luck if you are stuck with a class full of dummies! :iconwink:

That's what it's all about! Imagine working with a poor socio economic class of students in a school with barely minimal funding to get by - I know that if the teacher manages to engage the students that they've already done a huge job. Do the same in a class of students that come from a "privileged" background and it's not much of chance in the students.

The problem will be that if the teachers are paid based on their performance there's most likely going to be further paperwork and audits on top of what's already required with VIT registration. On top of this the performance most likely won't be based on the change in the class rather that the teacher hasn't got the class above the "now very high" state average.

I see it as the same as driving. How often do you see people not use indicators? They start off thinking that since no one is around, they won't bother. They become a bit lazy and drop their standards. I think this is where by always remembering to use your indicator, it is unnatural not to do so.

I reckon this started back in the baby boomer times - I'm not trying to point fingers, but I know my parents know how to spell a pot load better than I do simply because they studied latin at school. Latin explains where most english words come from and with this background you can more often than not work out the spelling of words and their "origins" so to speak. Now that this has gone and popular social networking has dumbed everything down it's a real task to turn it all around. This also has to be pushed in primary school.

On top of this you really "can't fail" students these days - it's too negative. The VELS (Victorian Education Learning Standards) system has been produced to report to parents without saying that their student has failed and needs to repeat the subject/year again. Rather "little Billy is reading at a level 3 standard" is the way to go. But little Billy is in year 10 and level 3 is a grade 5 level of reading... I don't agree with that, no one is going to sugar coat it once they're out of school, then it's too late.

But we do what is required by the powers that be who "know better"...

Cheers

Bennie
 
English is a shocker of a language. It has Latin in it, add some German, French and a couple of others and that alone leaves us with a language that is best described as hotch potch. The English a few hundred years ago had an opportunity to clean up the English language, but let this golden opportunity pass them by with nothing but token changes. Our US friends did not help when they went down their path, changing the spelling and pronunciation of many words, creating a dual language effectively. In more recent times we have had teachers who themselves have difficulty spelling so what chance do their students have? This cannot fail rubbish is deplorable. As you say, what happens when they reach the real world??? School- as my old man used to say when I was a kid- is all about getting you to a stage where you can enter the real world. Your real education starts after school. How right he was.
 
On top of this you really "can't fail" students these days - it's too negative. The VELS (Victorian Education Learning Standards) system has been produced to report to parents without saying that their student has failed and needs to repeat the subject/year again. Rather "little Billy is reading at a level 3 standard" is the way to go. But little Billy is in year 10 and level 3 is a grade 5 level of reading... I don't agree with that, no one is going to sugar coat it once they're out of school, then it's too late.

But we do what is required by the powers that be who "know better"...
So do you still think that 50% should be considered the fail/pass point? So in knowing half of what is asked is still passing some sort of test? There are many things we do where if you are not 100% correct you are wrong or you could be considered to have failed on that task. Many things you either can do or can't. Is can't failure?

Assigning grades or levels when reporting do make sense if that grade is set against a norm. I have taught kids in year 5 (10 year olds) who have not been able to recognize more than 15 words - including their own name. Who has failed - me or them?
 
This cannot fail rubbish is deplorable. As you say, what happens when they reach the real world??? School- as my old man used to say when I was a kid- is all about getting you to a stage where you can enter the real world. Your real education starts after school. How right he was.

School is an essential part of the real world and what you are saying is just an often repeated cliche used to cover those in society who appear to have made a success of their lives (whatever that can be defined as) in spite of little formal education. Someone has taught you to read, write and compute and in almost all cases that has been a teacher.
 
Gidday Bennie

That's what it's all about! Imagine working with a poor socio economic class of students in a school with barely minimal funding to get by - I know that if the teacher manages to engage the students that they've already done a huge job. Do the same in a class of students that come from a "privileged" background and it's not much of chance in the students.

I agree. This is precisely where the "pay by numbers" idea falls flat on its face.

However, there has to be assessment of teachers as well. In the scenario you describe, things are made infinitely worse for the pupils by the presence of a crappy teacher. And like every other occupation, there ARE crappy teachers ...

The problem will be that if the teachers are paid based on their performance there's most likely going to be further paperwork and audits on top of what's already required with VIT registration. On top of this the performance most likely won't be based on the change in the class rather that the teacher hasn't got the class above the "now very high" state average.

In my youth, exams were set and marked by the University of Queensland. These were at the end of year 8 ("Scholarship"); end of second year of secondary school (year 10 - "Junior") and at the end of the final year of secondary school (year 12 - "Senior") If one achieved the minimum standard in Senior, one matriculated, and could then apply for entry into university. One could pass, but not matriculate.

I reckon this started back in the baby boomer times

Actually, started in the early 1970s when the American system of teaching kids to read by recognising whole sentences at once came into vogue. That was a disaster! Adults generally read this way, often scanning an entire sentence in a non-logical order. They can do this because they learned the alphabet and how to spell words first ...

I'm not trying to point fingers, but I know my parents know how to spell a pot load better than I do simply because they studied latin at school. Latin explains where most english words come from and with this background you can more often than not work out the spelling of words and their "origins" so to speak. Now that this has gone and popular social networking has dumbed everything down it's a real task to turn it all around. This also has to be pushed in primary school.

As I said before, teachers who cannot read, write and spell reasonably well see nothing wrong with kids who cannot read, write and spell ...

On top of this you really "can't fail" students these days - it's too negative. The VELS (Victorian Education Learning Standards) system has been produced to report to parents without saying that their student has failed and needs to repeat the subject/year again. Rather "little Billy is reading at a level 3 standard" is the way to go. But little Billy is in year 10 and level 3 is a grade 5 level of reading... I don't agree with that, no one is going to sugar coat it once they're out of school, then it's too late.

Under the Dawkins Plan, it has become almost impossible to fail at University as well. Great. Really terrific.

Now we have large numbers of university graduates who cannot read, write and spell. Universities have had to start teaching remedial English classes to students, because they have managed to matriculate into university without being able to read, write and spell ...

But we do what is required by the powers that be who "know better"...

I would like to be able to grade them all on their results ... :lildevil:
AND that's not a party political - I apply it across the board to all of them.

It is very interesting and informative to see the graph of results in a subject where a student either knows and understands the subject matter or they don't - e.g. statistics.
The distribution curve is bi-modal.
I would suggest that this is the case with almost all subjects, just that the marking system employed 'fills in the gap' between the two distinct and unconnected 'humps'.
 
Of course, you are correct- although I disagree with it being a cliche.

School is a vital part of learning- I see it as being like the foundations of a building. While there have been those who have performed poorly at school and done well in life, this shows up the limitations of the school system. But then I have to ask why subjects I learnt at school were considered necessary.

Why did I have to learn about the Tigris-Euphrates area of Mesopotamia? I would have far preferred to learn about the incredible feats done by Australians in the First World War. Rather than hear about King Henry the Third, I'd rather hear about Sir John Monash and Sir Edward "Weary" Dunlop. I appreciate that this is a syllabus issue, not a teacher issue. It comes back to relevance, and the fact that school needs to prepare students either for uni, TAFE or a job and life outside of school. Why, when the vast majority of us won't ever use trigonometry must we learn that at school, but learning to how to control a car- something almost everyone will do, is not taught?

So we are taught a language at school, but we are not taught it very well. We are taught history- but about countries that no longer exist or are on the other side of the world, but bugger all of our own. We are taught aspects of maths most of us won't use, but fail to teach basic additions and subtractions. I could go on. Again, I know this is syllabus. But it is the teachers job to find a way of imparting knowledge to the student. As I said before, if I could find a number of kids who previously found history to be boring to now be interested in it, (Some even said why couldn't the teachers explain it the way I do?) what does that say about the teachers and the syllabus?


School is an essential part of the real world and what you are saying is just an often repeated cliche used to cover those in society who appear to have made a success of their lives (whatever that can be defined as) in spite of little formal education. Someone has taught you to read, write and compute and in almost all cases that has been a teacher.
 
I could go on. Again, I know this is syllabus. But it is the teachers job to find a way of imparting knowledge to the student.
That's another false cliche. It's not the job of a teacher at all. Just one of many things they do is helping to guide the students in finding ways of discovering knowledge that is relevant to them.

The same with the cliche about addition and subtraction - along with counting and spacial awareness they are they basis of what kids are doing in maths in year 1 and the algorithms are developed all the way through primary school. Compared with what we had to cover in the curriculum back in the 50's and 60's the kids and teachers now face a far wider range of learning. Primary teachers are always complaining that they don't have enough time to work on the basics of numeracy and literacy because of the time demands of LOTE, music, technology, HRE, phys ed etc.

I'm just out of 36 straight years of it and during that time saw massive changes in what was being demanded of teachers and children, both by the system and society. One thing I can say is the teachers in the last 5 years that I was working with were the best in all that time and the kids I was working with give me great hope for the future. And I always continued to be amazed by the lack of knowledge, prejudices and misinformation usually based on their own limited experiences of a distant school past that comes from the general public about what goes on in schools. The "school is not the real world" is just part of that.
 
Gidday All

I think that one of the greatest disservices ever is to muddle up the terms "pupil" and "student".

While the term "pupil" can refer to the pursuit of scholarship of and by itself; it also necessarily implies the existence of minority (as in, age of) and being the subject of tutelage (SOED and Dr Johnson's Dictionary of the English Language). That is to say, one who is taught a subject.

The term "student" refers to one who is not a minor, pursuing a course of (generally) tertiary study or instruction where the prime mover and initiator is oneself, rather than another being responsible for instructing one. That is to say, one who studies a subject.

The general lack of understanding of this distinction often leads to disaster in tertiary courses, when a pupil suddenly discovers (or fails to discover ... ) that no one cares one hair on a bullock's bum whether they even show up or not, and won't notice if they fail and are not present the following year ... They have suddenly metamorphosed into being a student, but no one bothered to explain the difference to them ...

Of course, as a pupil progresses through school towards matriculation (whatever one chooses to call it), one would expect them to become more "student-like" and less "pupil-like".

At the beginning of my post-graduate course/s in accounting, they delivered us about 80 pages of maths at the introductory session 4 weeks prior to the course commencing and told us to check it before the course started, as we would be expected to know it all as prior knowledge. The University also said to contact a tutor if anyone had any problems with it.

Basically covered everything done from primary school to matriculation, with the exception of geometry, trigonometry and calculus ...

We were then expected to launch straight into probability theory and linear programming, along with some not very basic statistics ...

This one example serves to show the difference between being a pupil as against being a student.

God, I wish someone had explained things this way to me back when I first started undergraduate study ...
Sure would have saved me a lot of pain and suffering ...
 
Well, horses for courses because I just asked my ex teacher colleague and he agreed with me "absolutely".
 
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