Teaching:

[guzzla]

although i dont disagree with a teacher payrise, i also belive be happy with what you currently get. correct me if im wrong bennie but a full time 1st yr teacher gets about 52g a year? not bad a registered nurse in victoria only get about 45g so about 7g a year more is pretty good! and in my field working for the government i only expect to get 40-45 a year so teachers arent to hard done by seeming the hours a good, plenty of holidays

In QLD a teacher who has taught 10 years and thus reached the top of the pay scale gets $81000 a year. That jumps to $85000 for those who apply for senior teacher positions as most of them do, as there are no extra duties required.

My wife is a teacher and for what she does and the time she puts into her job I think $81000 is pretty crap money. I have friends and family who get double that and more and none of them have to put the time into their job that she does. There are many jobs that are undervalued in our society and good teaching is just one of them.

 

[thunder039]

In QLD a teacher who has taught 10 years and thus reached the top of the pay scale gets $81000 a year. That jumps to $85000 for those who apply for senior teacher positions as most of them do, as there are no extra duties required.

My wife is a teacher and for what she does and the time she puts into her job I think $81000 is pretty crap money. I have friends and family who get double that and more and none of them have to put the time into their job that she does. There are many jobs that are undervalued in our society and good teaching is just one of them.

$85,000 is a fair bit more then a nurse who is responsible for life when she is looking after you!
remember i never said that teachers dont deserve a payrise but i believe there are other professions that deserve it first

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Thunder

$85,000 is a fair bit more then a nurse who is responsible for life when she is looking after you!
remember i never said that teachers dont deserve a payrise but i believe there are other professions that deserve it first

Regardless of what nurses are paid, $85K p.a. is nearly double average weekly full time male earnings. Hardly "doing it tough".

If one starts to look at modal full time weekly earnings, this sort of money looks even better ...

AWE includes Gina and James in the calculations.

Modal WE is the most commonly occurring value; i.e. what most people earn.

AND most people work hard at their work.

 

[thunder039]

Gidday Thunder



Regardless of what nurses are paid, $85K p.a. is nearly double average weekly full time male earnings. Hardly "doing it tough".

If one starts to look at modal full time weekly earnings, this sort of money looks even better ...

AWE includes Gina and James in the calculations.

Modal WE is the most commonly occurring value; i.e. what most people earn.

AND most people work hard at their work.

i agree ratbag $85,000 isnt anything to complain about

i was just simply using nursing as a comparison for
1) my fiance is a nure as is my mother
2) has been a issue recently in victoria with payrise
3) both are a profession

 

[guzzla]

$85,000 is a fair bit more then a nurse who is responsible for life when she is looking after you!
remember i never said that teachers dont deserve a payrise but i believe there are other professions that deserve it first

And most people would accept that nurses are underpaid although 2 nursing friends of ours get similar money to my wife so there is nursing and nursing I guess. I do have another friend who is a nurse in a nursing home who is only paid $18 an hour though. Officially my wife gets $62 an hour. A teacher is responsible for the lives of 25 to 30 children for around 7 hours a day. They are only paid for 5 hours a day. My wife works around 13 hours a day and up to 10 hours on weekend days. The public doesn't see that - just the 9 to 3 week days and the 10 weeks a year holidays.

I find it rather interesting that in Finland, which is generally regarded as having the most successful education system in the world, teachers and teaching are regarded by the community as being at the top of the list as far as professions go. Many medical positions are taken up by unsuccessful teaching applicants. And the training of teachers is less important than the qualities of the person applying for the position - no ammount of training and qualifications will make a good teacher if they don't have the personal attributes that are required.

 

[thunder039]

And most people would accept that nurses are underpaid although 2 nursing friends of ours get similar money to my wife so there is nursing and nursing I guess. I do have another friend who is a nurse in a nursing home who is only paid $18 an hour though. Officially my wife gets $62 an hour. A teacher is responsible for the lives of 25 to 30 children for around 7 hours a day. They are only paid for 5 hours a day. My wife works around 13 hours a day and up to 10 hours on weekend days. The public doesn't see that - just the 9 to 3 week days and the 10 weeks a year holidays.

I find it rather interesting that in Finland, which is generally regarded as having the most successful education system in the world, teachers and teaching are regarded by the community as being at the top of the list as far as professions go. Many medical positions are taken up by unsuccessful teaching applicants. And the training of teachers is less important than the qualities of the person applying for the position - no ammount of training and qualifications will make a good teacher if they don't have the personal attributes that are required.

it is hard to compare when each state is also different in victoria the nurses and teachers are some of the least paid in the country.

 

[guzzla]

Regardless of what nurses are paid, $85K p.a. is nearly double average weekly full time male earnings. Hardly "doing it tough".

That was a long time ago. The average male wage is now $73000 in Australia. Maybe I mix in an unusual circle of friends but none of them earn less than that and some earn up to 4 times more. My daughter charges $150 an hour as an archaeologist and has little of the responsibility or stress that her mother does in her job. And none of them puts in the hours my wife does. And she doesn't believe she is "doing it tough". Just a fair recognition of the work and responsibility of the job by the general public would be appreciated rather than a reflection back on the "worst" teachers that they had in their life (and there would have been some really hopeless ones going by my observations) and judging the profession on them alone.

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Guzzla

And most people would accept that nurses are underpaid although 2 nursing friends of ours get similar money to my wife so there is nursing and nursing I guess. I do have another friend who is a nurse in a nursing home who is only paid $18 an hour though. Officially my wife gets $62 an hour. A teacher is responsible for the lives of 25 to 30 children for around 7 hours a day. They are only paid for 5 hours a day. My wife works around 13 hours a day and up to 10 hours on weekend days. The public doesn't see that - just the 9 to 3 week days and the 10 weeks a year holidays.

Been there; done that. Had a ball doing it!
I often work until after midnight and all weekend, because it suits my clients better for me NOT to be on site during normal working hours.

I also have to pay for all my business overheads personally. When I was working full time (I am now mostly retired), these overheads were around $30,000 p.a., even though I had always worked from home.

I find it rather interesting that in Finland, which is generally regarded as having the most successful education system in the world, teachers and teaching are regarded by the community as being at the top of the list as far as professions go. Many medical positions are taken up by unsuccessful teaching applicants. And the training of teachers is less important than the qualities of the person applying for the position - no ammount of training and qualifications will make a good teacher if they don't have the personal attributes that are required.

Without in any way being derogatory towards teachers, or the teaching profession, please inform me of any teaching qualification that requires the same standards of educational achievement as (say) the anatomy & physiology requirements for medicine.

Geez, even in my psychology degree, we had to do a major in statistics and experimental design. It didn't count for any units, but one HAD to pass each year before being allowed to continue with ANY subjects above that year.

Accountancy requires the following:

1) Three year undergraduate degree (or equivalent post-graduate degree), with curriculum approved by the professional bodies. That gains one admission to the professional course ...

2) Completion of the professional course, which is 2 years full time; but more usually 5 to 6 years part time. This allows you to use the post-nominal, e.g. Ratbag CPA.

3) Part of #2 is the requirement that one has three years full time supervised experience in work that constitutes general accounting work (directly supervised by a fully accredited member of the profession, with membership of the professional body/s). Five years unsupervised experience, with proof of same, satisfies this condition.

4) Completion of the practising certificate course: one year full time, but more commonly 2 to 3 years part time.

5) As part of #4, 2 years supervised experience in work that constitutes public accounting work. After #4 and #5, one can apply to satisfy the character requirements in order to be granted a public practising certificate.

Kind of makes a 2 year Dip. Ed. with 50 hours supervised teaching experience look pretty easy, doesn't it?

AND $85K p.a. would have about 70% of the workers in this country drooling.

As Thunder has already said - it ain't bad pay ...

BTW the nursing pay rates do include all those poor souls who work bloody hard in nursing homes (and my god, do they work hard. I have also had a couple of years experience of first hand observation of this).
Do these nurses have, or need the level of qualifications of a theatre nurse; or a level one cardiac care nurse? I think not.

 

[Rally]

I feel that really good teachers deserve to be paid really well. But regardless of how good you are, it is almost impossible to lose your job. In my job, I am under constant appraisal due to results- if I do not perform, gone. Even then it is no certainty. In my last job, we were taken over and even though I had increased sales in my area by 40% on the year before, I still lost my job.

The bloke I work with is an ex- teacher. We often chat about these things. He is proud of being a teacher, and when I brought up the very long holidays teachers got, he immediately defended it by saying that he would use that time in preparing for the next term and so on. Knowing how hard he works and his commitment to his current job, I believe him. But when I asked if all or even most teachers did that- he said no. He is another one of those really good teachers that we all need. But even he attacked his old union, even though he was strong within it. Not only is hard to sack poor teachers, it is hard to tell which are the good ones.

One point he did make which i do agree with is that teachers are now expected to do way more than be a teacher. They are expected to make up for poor parenting and perform other tasks than just mere teaching. Again, this is NSW- I do not know about Victoria but surely we need not burden all of life's expectations on the teacher- let them be good teachers, not social workers as well

 

[Rally]

Nurses are in the main brilliant, and are as responsible for the positive outcome as doctors are. They certainly have my support.

Gidday Guzzla



Been there; done that. Had a ball doing it!
I often work until after midnight and all weekend, because it suits my clients better for me NOT to be on site during normal working hours.

I also have to pay for all my business overheads personally. When I was working full time (I am now mostly retired), these overheads were around $30,000 p.a., even though I had always worked from home.



Without in any way being derogatory towards teachers, or the teaching profession, please inform me of any teaching qualification that requires the same standards of educational achievement as (say) the anatomy & physiology requirements for medicine.

Geez, even in my psychology degree, we had to do a major in statistics and experimental design. It didn't count for any units, but one HAD to pass each year before being allowed to continue with ANY subjects above that year.

Accountancy requires the following:

1) Three year undergraduate degree (or equivalent post-graduate degree), with curriculum approved by the professional bodies. That gains one admission to the professional course ...

2) Completion of the professional course, which is 2 years full time; but more usually 5 to 6 years part time. This allows you to use the post-nominal, e.g. Ratbag CPA.

3) Part of #2 is the requirement that one has three years full time supervised experience in work that constitutes general accounting work (directly supervised by a fully accredited member of the profession, with membership of the professional body/s). Five years unsupervised experience, with proof of same, satisfies this condition.

4) Completion of the practising certificate course: one year full time, but more commonly 2 to 3 years part time.

5) As part of #4, 2 years supervised experience in work that constitutes public accounting work. After #4 and #5, one can apply to satisfy the character requirements in order to be granted a public practising certificate.

Kind of makes a 2 year Dip. Ed. with 50 hours supervised teaching experience look pretty easy, doesn't it?

AND $85K p.a. would have about 70% of the workers in this country drooling.

As Thunder has already said - it ain't bad pay ...

BTW the nursing pay rates do include all those poor souls who work bloody hard in nursing homes (and my god, do they work hard. I have also had a couple of years experience of first hand observation of this).
Do these nurses have, or need the level of qualifications of a theatre nurse; or a level one cardiac care nurse? I think not.

 

[El_Freddo]

it is hard to compare when each state is also different in victoria the nurses and teachers are some of the least paid in the country.

Please read the article in the first post. This discussion wasn't started on the topic of money, it was started because of the topic of money - there's a difference. What I was merely trying to point out that politics of this day and age love performance based pay. In education terms this simply cannot happen - eveyone working in a poor socio-economic area typically will be labelled as poor educators. Read the article, it'll explain it better, try not to glaze over if it bores you, come back to it later.

I don't know the situation in Victoria, but based on NSW and also on what I see on forums, teaching has certainly not progressed in terms of the use of the English language. I do a lot of reading, yet when reading posts on forums I have real difficulty trying to understand what has been written. Not only do the words not make sense- nor do the sentences. Anyone wishing to become a teacher certainly has a task ahead of themselves in this area.

I some times question the value of primary school students using computers. Hand writing is shocking at best. By the time I get them it's too late to do anything about it - the final years are about the content, not the skills of writing it out clearly and accurately!

Will just say that I really feel for Scott (Bennie) and hope he scores a job soon. The students of Victoria are the poorer that he has missed out thus far.

Thanks for your kind words Barry, I've only been looking for a job since last August, gone are the days of putting your hand up and walking into a job the next day.

Part of this is that Universities are now factories in some regard - it's all about how many students they can push out in a year which really relates to how much money they can rake in...

What do Universities teach?

1) Accurate reading and comprehension
2) Analysis (includes hypothesis formulation and testing)
3) Drawing of logical conclusions from the above
4) The ability to communicate the results of the above to others by being able to write competently and concisely

And
5) The absorption of the specific factual material relevant to the course of instruction.

Sorry Ratbag, I have to disagree, Universities do not teach you anything - they lecture you and through tutorials guide you to find the deeper meanings in the presented material - gain knowledge on a higher level of thinking through own actions. It's not teaching.

There's an old saying:

Primary school teachers love their students (keep it clean people)
Secondary school teachers love their subjects (I'll admit this is me)
University lecturers love themselves!

Really what we did in uni is not in the real world, no matter how hard our lecturers tried to make it seem like it was - 20 years lecturing rather than being out in the real thing is a huge gap! But we all knew this.

Good luck with it Bennie, lets hope you get it.

Thanks mate, my wife thinks the same too. I think this last application is it for teaching this year, if there arn't anymore coming up then I'll have to wait for the positions offered for next year, if I don't get one of them I'll be stuffed as to what to do - probably go truck driving to fill in the time.

where abouts are you hoping to teach bennie? and do you teach secondary or primary

Anywhere in Vic would be good. The last two applications have been in Wodonga and Mallacoota. The one I'm waiting to hear from is in Essendon, but I'd prefer to be out in the sticks. If it means that foot in the door then I'm not fussed with being in the burb's.

i could realy image you bennie teaching auto shop to high school students and having a project ruby scoo with free child labour

Stick that for a joke - where's the fun? And I'd be paranoid that it wasn't done right! But it would be a good class to take, I know I'd love it because I've got a passion for it.

:lol:

I'm pretty sure he teaches high school and phys'ed and outdoor ed.

Outdoor Education (Outdoor & Environment Studies VCE) and Media Studies are my teaching methods - both VCE, both electives, both super competitive to get into...

I'll also add that while schools seem to think that Outdoor Ed and Phys Ed are integrally linked, this is far from the case. I think where this miss-placed relationship comes from is that back in the early days of Outdoor Education the teachers that pioneered this course were PE teachers. From this schools have held on to this link as if it's gospel. It's frustrating!

To add to it my old uni is now producing PE/OE teachers through a customised degree that's modified the original core OE course to accommodate these PE/OE students - but that's another kettle of fish too (the uni side of things). This course only reinforces that link above which in my opinion is not a good thing.


.

 

[El_Freddo]

If I were a teacher I would teach Phys ed. I'd be so mean and make them run 10 laps of the school on a 45 degree day :lol:

Good luck with that - you'd have a riot on your hands!

In the mean time while waiting for that job opportunity I've got my name down at 12 schools for Casual Relief Teaching - CRT for short - so far I've worked at 2 schools with a total of 7 or 8 days of the year. It's pretty dismal. And I'm over taking PE classes!

I went with CRT for several reasons:

1) keeps your teaching skills working, and is great for classroom management skills!
2) You get known in the schools you teach in, it's great for making a good name for yourself
3) It's busy working as a CRT - at least that's what I was told back in uni from some teachers that visited us.

I guess I've lucked out on #3; I was hoping to be flat out this term with dates booked up into term 3... But it's not the case. As budgets are tightened up there's less room for CRTs to be brought in as needed - they'll stretch their current staff before they'll put on a CRT.

Back to the original point of this thread, please do read the article if you haven't done so already - that should explain what I'm on about with performance based teaching, it all comes down to money - and I mean funding for the schools for the education of the students. Socio-economic status of the families that the students come from will have a direct impact on the teacher based performance level.

I hope this all makes sense and that I haven't rambled on - there's been some very health discussion in here about teaching, it's been great to see.

Regards

Bennie

 

[El_Freddo]

although i dont disagree with a teacher payrise, i also belive be happy with what you currently get. correct me if im wrong bennie but a full time 1st yr teacher gets about 52g a year? not bad a registered nurse in victoria only get about 45g so about 7g a year more is pretty good! and in my field working for the government i only expect to get 40-45 a year so teachers arent to hard done by seeming the hours a good, plenty of holidays

To correct you, the last time I looked a 1st year teacher gets 47k which then rises up to about 60k in their 4th year - but this is from a dodgy memory and what was told to us at uni about 3 or 4 years ago... really I don't care about the pay at this point - its about getting the job!

I almost applied for a job driving a rubbish collection truck a few weeks back - $70k a year for picking up rubbish from the comfortable cab of a truck without any worry about treating a student wrong and have your own school and the government body that you pay every year for your registration come down on you like a ton of bricks. Lets not mention the parents here either! But all that said, I didn't go for that job in hope of scoring a teaching position soon.

Cheers

Bennie

 

[guzzla]

Without in any way being derogatory towards teachers, or the teaching profession, please inform me of any teaching qualification that requires the same standards of educational achievement as (say) the anatomy & physiology requirements for medicine.

The number of degrees, the difficulty in getting them or the number of years required to achieve qualifications is not always reflected in the pay rates of jobs. There are peole out there who are earning way more than money we have been talking about who have no real qualifications other than determination, drive and a willingness to learn on the job and adapt to situations. Then there are people like my daughter who had 4 years full time uni followed by a couple of years work and then 5 years doing a PhD. They are lucky they are in a profession that in the present Australian environment is in huge demand. There are companies out there that are willing to pay almost anything for their skills.

Teaching is one of those essential jobs that not everyone can do and only few, because of special personal qualities, can do really well. That ability should be recognized with appropriate pay. They have the responsibility of guiding and nurturing the future adult citizens of this country. Teaching is a lot more than teaching the 3R's.

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Rally

I feel that really good teachers deserve to be paid really well. But regardless of how good you are, it is almost impossible to lose your job. In my job, I am under constant appraisal due to results- if I do not perform, gone. Even then it is no certainty. In my last job, we were taken over and even though I had increased sales in my area by 40% on the year before, I still lost my job.

Exactly. When I worked (bloody hard ... ) in the Commonwealth public service, we sacrificed a good deal for that (then) job security. In those days, the CPS employees were all but incorruptible. Lose that tenured employment and replace it with contractors and what happens? Our CPS are now damn near as venal and corruptible as those in any third world country. Just look at the scandals surrounding the AWB and the Reserve Bank of Australia ... You know, the one who doesn't borrow or lend any money, but presumes to tell the banks what rate they should borrow and lend money at ...

Well, surprise, surprise; banks have long term commitments to pay certain rates of interest to people who lend them money (depositors ... ), and this liability or contingent liability does not change along with the whims and fancies of a politically driven central "bank".
This was different when the RB held Statutory Reserve Deposits from the banks, but Mr Keating abolished this very sensible control ...

The bloke I work with is an ex- teacher. We often chat about these things. He is proud of being a teacher, and when I brought up the very long holidays teachers got, he immediately defended it by saying that he would use that time in preparing for the next term and so on. Knowing how hard he works and his commitment to his current job, I believe him. But when I asked if all or even most teachers did that- he said no. He is another one of those really good teachers that we all need. But even he attacked his old union, even though he was strong within it. Not only is hard to sack poor teachers, it is hard to tell which are the good ones.

I do not disagree with a single word you have said here.
As for unions: I resigned from mine the day Mr Whitlam made it compulsory for me to be a member (I had to contribute the union dues to charity to make up for it ... ); and re-joined the day that Mr Fraser abolished that bit of communist inspired nonsense. I was a member of that union from then until I left the CPS.
I actually support unions, in principle. I just think that most of them have seriously lost the plot. They are there to defend (particularly) the powerless from the powerful. In fact, they spend lots of time defending the powerful from any kind of meaningful scrutiny ...

One point he did make which i do agree with is that teachers are now expected to do way more than be a teacher. They are expected to make up for poor parenting and perform other tasks than just mere teaching. Again, this is NSW- I do not know about Victoria but surely we need not burden all of life's expectations on the teacher- let them be good teachers, not social workers as well

Quite.
I taught everything from a grade 8 drama class - they loved how I tied together dance, gymnastics, Tae Kwon Do; and explained how it may well have taken the participants 30 years to perfect that "simple" trick ... They stayed for 30 minutes into lunch break, because they just wouldn't leave ...
to year 12 advanced classes in computing, who were using programs that I had never even seen before. No matter. Most knowledge is generalisable, and starting the class by telling them what I have just said gave them all a good laugh. Most said afterwards to me and the the Director of IT (my mentor) how much they learned and enjoyed the classes I took them for. He took my year 9 villains ... :iconwink: :lol: Little B*****ds!

I had been employed to teach year 9 + 11 VET ...

I also gave a talk at the end of my term there to the year 12 (almost) students titled "ETHICS, the ENVIRONMENT and HUMAN SURVIVAL". It was exceptionally well received, with the question period running half way over lunch break. The school times were adjusted to account for this ...

 

[guzzla]

To correct you, the last time I looked a 1st year teacher gets 47k which then rises up to about 60k in their 4th year - but this is from a dodgy memory and what was told to us at uni about 3 or 4 years ago... really I don't care about the pay at this point - its about getting the job!

That doesn't sound right. In QLD a first year teacher starts on $58000 and progresses through to $81000 over 10 years with the chance to then apply to be a senior teacher at $85000. Principals of schools with around 600 students are getting around $115000.

 

[Ratbag]

G'day again Guzzla

Teaching is one of those essential jobs that not everyone can do and only few, because of special personal qualities, can do really well.

I agree, as I said above about it being a vocation, not an occupation ... .
That's also one more reason for having pay differentials, as exist in nursing (say, but also in almost every other occupation in existence ... ).
Also for having both pupil and teacher assessments on a regular basis.

Studies of human abilities indicate (prohibit?) perfect scores in any meaningful assessment system. The curve has to be a normal distribution curve. So why do exam results end up with heavily skewed distributions? Flies in the face of everything we know about human intellectual (and other) performance. I would expect to see a "perfect" score about once in a million examinees; not 10 from one school alone.

An "A" grade for BS, but little else ...

That ability should be recognized with appropriate pay. They have the responsibility of guiding and nurturing the future adult citizens of this country. Teaching is a lot more than teaching the 3R's.

I agree, but it wouldn't hurt if they DID teach the 3Rs. Or even understood the importance and existence of them, in some cases ...

ALL knowledge is "locked up" in books, or their equivalent, and reading is the only key ...

AND yet again, $85K p.a. is hardly "doing it tough".

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Bennie

To correct you, the last time I looked a 1st year teacher gets 47k which then rises up to about 60k in their 4th year - but this is from a dodgy memory and what was told to us at uni about 3 or 4 years ago... really I don't care about the pay at this point - its about getting the job!

I almost applied for a job driving a rubbish collection truck a few weeks back - $70k a year for picking up rubbish from the comfortable cab of a truck without any worry about treating a student wrong and have your own school and the government body that you pay every year for your registration come down on you like a ton of bricks. Lets not mention the parents here either! But all that said, I didn't go for that job in hope of scoring a teaching position soon.

Cheers

Bennie

You WANT to be a teacher, regardless.
That's a vocation, if you also have the skills, or can develop them.

All the very best in your endeavours mate. May it work out well for you soon.

 

[thunder039]

Please read the article in the first post. This discussion wasn't started on the topic of money, it was started because of the topic of money - there's a difference. What I was merely trying to point out that politics of this day and age love performance based pay. In education terms this simply cannot happen - eveyone working in a poor socio-economic area typically will be labelled as poor educators. Read the article, it'll explain it better, try not to glaze over if it bores you, come back to it later.

hi bennie read the article and i dont agree with pay upon performance, bad luck if you are stuck with a class full of dummies! :iconwink:
i the thread and myself went on a bit of a tanjent with the pay sorry..

 

[guzzla]

but it wouldn't hurt if they DID teach the 3Rs. Or even understood the importance and existence of them, in some cases ...

My wife just wishes for some of the basic things like kids she teaches being toilet trained, being able to speak some form of Enlish and coming to school nearly every day would be a start.