Driver training, instruction.

stilson

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Sunny Balga WA
After watching Subacools action at Dirtfish, I would like to do something similar.
I'm not a terrible driver but coming from a rwd background I made the transition to fwd easily but am finding awd a little more difficult. It is kind of point and shoot which sounds easy but having more control makes it more important to know what to do with it.

On road Im a firm believer in using ones indicators and switching to and from Euro and normal ( haha) indicator stalks has left my hands a bit confused and my steering technique leaves a little to be desired, a point which is magnified by the foresters slower steering ratio.

Could any one recommend an advanced training course out west (or anywhere for rhe sake of others) or consider themselves expert enough to give me any pointers?
 
There are skidpan days organized by ozfoz or Perth wrx near the airport. Great to test the limits on road of your car in a safe and legal environment with the option of a instructor to sit with you . Highly recommended
 
Hey thanks lefty that might be just the ticket.

Maybe I'll put off the new tyres until I do a few of these.
 
See my post of my skidpan today elsewhere- but if you have good instructors this could be both beneficial and enjoyable. The standard Subaru is essentially like a FWD car most of the time. But you really have to be careful of lift off oversteer. If you are near the limit, don't lift off the throttle part way through the corner. The combination of weight transfer and massive movement in the rear trailing arms bushes especially will result in loss of rear traction and around you go.

When accelerating out of tight wet corners- especially in the turbos- you will in most cases understeer- and then understeer even more. So you need to pick up the throttle a bit later and not too hard- especially in the wet. With the N/A's, once you've started to straighten up you can pretty much pick up the throttle totally- but it depends on so many factors so what works in some conditions may not in work in others. In the turbos, when you do pick up the throttle you need to do so more carefully, or you'll just spin the inside front wheel and be bitterly frustrated. If you want the car to turn in, you need some forward weight transfer for the tyres to bite. But braking too hard can cancel that out. Practice, practice. All good fun- get some expert tuition and you'll be a better driver who enjoys driving even more.
 
I'd be all over that but unfortunately I'll be in china.

If any more come up let me know, cheers.
 
On road Im a firm believer in using ones indicators and switching to and from Euro and normal ( haha) indicator stalks has left my hands a bit confused and my steering technique leaves a little to be desired, a point which is magnified by the foresters slower steering ratio.

By "Euro" do you mean indicator on the left & wipers on the right?

When driving my GF's beetle, I keep turning on the wipers when I turn left! :rotfl:

Could any one recommend an advanced training course out west (or anywhere for rhe sake of others) or consider themselves expert enough to give me any pointers?
Point into the corners and away from other cars! :raspberry::rotfl:

lift off oversteer. If you are near the limit, don't lift off the throttle part way through the corner. The combination of weight transfer and massive movement in the rear trailing arms bushes especially will result in loss of rear traction and around you go.

When accelerating out of tight wet corners- especially in the turbos- you will in most cases understeer- and then understeer even more.

If you want the car to turn in, you need some forward weight transfer for the tyres to bite. But braking too hard can cancel that out. Practice, practice. All good fun- get some expert tuition and you'll be a better driver who enjoys driving even more.

I was a total novice to AWD before I got my Foz. On dirt, I was used to flinging a car into a corner then controlling the oversteer. Now all I get is understeer. As you say, worse when I lift off.

I'll have to practise the braking method...
 
When driving my GF's beetle, I keep turning on the wipers when I turn left!
My last 4 cars have been: Volvo; Volvo; beetle; pug 206 gti. I got confused when I jumped in the forester.
 
Driving in a straight line is not especially challengine as long as you remain alert and drive to the conditions. A lot of people get into strife when they need to turn the car. It's pretty straight forward- but I see almost everyone get it wrong. There are three things I always need to get right before a corner- correct entry speed, correct line and correct gear. Get all that done BEFORE the corner, then all you need to do is turn the steering wheel.

Roundabouts are a classic example. Everyone approaches the roundabout along the centreline. This means they have to apply more lock into the roundabout and more exiting- especially when going "straight ahead" It also means they have to slow down more and are kept busier through the whole procedure. I approach as close to the footpath as I can, apply minimal lock and keep it a whole lot smoother. It is the same when people turn into one street from another. They turn too early and drive across the apex of the turn rather than "kissing" it. How often do you have to hit the brakes harder coming up to a set of lights because the bloke turning into your street has cut across where you were going to stop?

The problem here in NSW is that knowing how to correct a slide is not required to legally drive a motor car. I see it at the skidpan when new drivers find themselves totally lost in such situations. Yesterday we had a bloke in a brand new STI. Here was the perfect opportunity to deal with a situation in safety which could easily occur on the public road- but he did not know what to do- nor was he keen to find out.

One wet day I arrived at the top of a steep, 6 lane road and part way down I saw oil all across it. (Those in Sydney may know Warringah Rd going down to Dee Why). I was in a fully laden van (In excess of 3.5 tonnes). If it were not for my driver training and experience, it could well have been a multi fatality. It was all about reducing lateral loads, careful braking and minimal steering inputs. This situation could also have been dangerous in a current STI- your Forester or anything.

Anyway, there is so much to driver training that it never ceases. We need to keep practicing, and never just take driving as a chore or as just a means of getting from A to B. Attitude is paramount- and if you don't keep alert, constantly looking out and having total situation awareness, maintaining your discipline then even with good driving skills you're in trouble. It boils down to:

Attitute
aBility
Concentration (and this also avoiding fatigue)
Discipline (you know, lane discipline, seat belt discipline, both hands on wheel, using indicators and headlights, etc.
 
Gidday ST

After watching Subacools action at Dirtfish, I would like to do something similar.
I'm not a terrible driver but coming from a rwd background I made the transition to fwd easily but am finding awd a little more difficult. It is kind of point and shoot which sounds easy but having more control makes it more important to know what to do with it.

My third driving instructor reckoned that if he didn't teach me to drive, I would be dead in a year ... He took me out to a road construction zone and taught me skid handling in the mud.

Eighteen years ago now, Sep van Maanen, the parts manager at the dealer I bought Roo1 from, put it to me this way:

"In Europe they call the Audi Quattro "the widow maker". They handle so well that people go faster, and faster, and faster. Then one day they come across a load of gravel, or black ice, or a tallow spill. They are going so fast that they are dead before they realise their mistake.

Subarus with AWD handle better than the Quattro because of the drive train being symmetrical."

About three years later, his words came back to haunt me as I fought the car through a very tight urban roundabout, coming out of it at around 60~70 kms/h in second ... I have been far more circumspect ever since, even though the superb handling saved me on more than one occasion.


On road Im a firm believer in using ones indicators and switching to and from Euro and normal ( haha) indicator stalks has left my hands a bit confused and my steering technique leaves a little to be desired, a point which is magnified by the foresters slower steering ratio.


The steering is "faster" than our reactions, as a general rule ...

And IMNSHO, 95% (at least) of "reaction time" is actually having correctly predicted the conditions prior to getting into them. IOW, be alert; always scanning the road ahead for situations or conditions that may impact on what you are going to do when you get there shortly ...

Could any one recommend an advanced training course out west (or anywhere for rhe sake of others) or consider themselves expert enough to give me any pointers?

I don't consider myself an "expert". However, I'm still alive and undamaged after 48 years and about 1,000,000 miles of driving many different kinds and makes of vehicles. I have driven some of the fastest and most powerful production cars ever made; and driven them very fast, often on shockingly bad roads. Maybe all that counts for something; maybe not.

As the Scouts say: "Be prepared" ...

Always pay other drivers the 'compliment' of treating them as if they are homicidal maniacs, out to get you in particular ... Hope and pray that they pay you the same 'compliment'. I reckon I have probably saved more people's lives than the other way around; BUT I can recall vividly some occasions when they saved mine (and their own ... ).

Never accelerate faster than the car in front of you ... :iconwink:.

Never accelerate hard into any corner on a road you don't know very well.
Never accelerate harder than the rate of change of direction of the corner. This goes double (or triple ... ) if you cannot clearly see your entire line through the corner, and beyond ...

Always be aware of what the road signs are telling you; and then never rely on them, unless you know that particular road well ...

Know thyself;
Know thy car;
He who hesitates is lost ...

Even my new Fox handles more than well enough to lure me into a false sense of security.

Never forget that a car weighing 1,000 kgs travelling at 60 km/h packs much the same hitting power as a 600 Nitro Express rifle (an "elephant gun") does at point blank range ...

More than enough for now. I have been at a client's today, and it has been irritating and stressful.

[EDIT]
And I agree with all that stuff that Rally contributed too.
The day you reckon you know it all; you're dead ...
Remember Brocky ...
[end edit]
 
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Well said Ratbag & Rally :cool:

But if I may, I'd also like to add one little extra bit, with that being....

Always expect the unexpected !!

Regards
Mr Turbo
 
Always pay other drivers the 'compliment' of treating them as if they are homicidal maniacs, out to get you in particular ... Hope and pray that they pay you the same 'compliment'. I reckon I have probably saved more people's lives than the other way around; BUT I can recall vividly some occasions when they saved mine (and their own ... ).

As a motorcyclist and cyclist I know this all to well.
 
Another thought or two about cornering.

I was taught never to brake when one is into a corner, even if only a little. While a FWD or AWD vehicle is far more forgiving of this than any RWD vehicle I have ever driven, it is a risky tactic even so.

Always brake before coming into the corner. One should hit the corner at the speed which will allow for any amount of acceleration necessary to hold one's line through the corner against the centripetal force. If one doesn't know how much acceleration will be necessary, really! are you going as fast as that?

Always remember that (in Oz ... reverse in those countries where they drive on the RHS of the road ... ) a left hand corner is far more dangerous than a RH corner. If you lose it on a LH corner, you are going straight into the oncoming traffic ... :(.

Always have a "Plan B". This involves having contingency directions if you lose it on a corner. What are the run-off paths? How can you avoid any obstacles in those run-off lines?

Your line should never involve crossing the centre line.
Not EVER.
Not even ONCE.
I think that this is clear ... :poke:.

As Rally has already said: start wide, close to the centre line at the apex, finish reasonably wide; always allowing wiggle room for the corner being a different shape and length from what you originally thought. IF you have to brake at the end stage, you are almost certainly going to be cactus ...
I don't care what you are driving ...

Sorry, but another frustrating day today at work. And an early start tomorrow. This is enough to be going on with, IMHO.
 
Always pay other drivers the 'compliment' of treating them as if they are homicidal maniacs, out to get you in particular ...

Always expect the unexpected !!

I still remember my fathers words of wisdom re driving on country roads:
Always drive around corners expecting a log truck to be coming the other way.

Thats helped me on several occasions lol
 
That's good advice RB, front tyres need to stop braking when they have to steer (you can't ask too much of them!)

On road (at least with the fam on board) I keep the speed down to allow for braking in any situation, pre or post apex.

My lines through corners and roundabouts are good. I agree strongly with the advice given.
On gravel I've found the point of traction gradual and predictable and had some great lift off and inertia initiated oversteer.

In the first rains recently the rear lost traction and as I accelerated and the fronts broke traction my steering input became far less forgiving. You will be happy to know RB, that it was a right hand corner and I had left a sizeable safety margin however I did lose exit speed and it wasn't as clean a manoeuvre as I had intended.

I'm going to Head along to the Wozfoz steakandbeer and see when the next skid pan day is.

I can't wait to give these rubbish goodyears the send off they deserve.
 
Your family is ALWAYS "in the car" ...

Gidday ST

That's good advice RB, front tyres need to stop braking when they have to steer (you can't ask too much of them!)

On road (at least with the fam on board) I keep the speed down to allow for braking in any situation, pre or post apex.

Your family is ALWAYS "in the car" with you ...

Either physically or in essence.
God forbid, if you were to kill yourself, or to damage yourself, your family would also be irretrievably and irrevocably damaged.

I'm going to Head along to the Wozfoz steakandbeer and see when the next skid pan day is.

That's an excellent idea.

Defensive driving courses should be compulsory at the end of the first year of driving, IMHO. An introductory course should also be compulsory as part of the fitness to drive testing before the granting of a full licence.

However, IMHO, nothing, but nothing will ever replace experience, and that only comes with time. In the first 5 years to 10 years of driving, one comes across many "new" situations. This gradually lessens. However, it should never be forgotten that these can still occur, even after 1,000,000 miles and nearly 48 years behind the wheel ...


I can't wait to give these rubbish goodyears the send off they deserve.

I have never liked Goodyear tyres personally.

I cannot really fault the Pirellis, but I look forward to replacing them with Michelin XM2. I have gone off the AT-s. Too many compromises on-road IMHO.
 
Gidday NL

I cannot really fault the Pirellis, but I look forward to replacing them with Michelin XM2. I have gone off the AT-s. Too many compromises on-road IMHO.

Ah but life is a compromise! :rotfl:

Yeah, true enough.

I got a quote for the Michelins this morning. $165 a corner, F&B. Includes remounting 3 of the Pirellis on my trailer rims (Yoki shop quoted $25 a tyre for this ... ). Another $89 for a full alignment. I don't know the detailed history of the car; so probably a wise move to have this checked.

So this makes the Michelins $749 in total; vs. the Yoki AT-s at $1,064 all up. A saving of about $315 ...

A further consideration is that reading the tyre thread here indicates that people are getting around 45~55,000 kms from the AT-s; but around 65~90,000 from the XM1s. Apparently the XM2s give better wear than the XM1s. Both are a silicaceous rubber.

Cost/km:

AT-s = 1.64c ($225 x 4 / 55,000)
XM2 = 0.94c ($165 x 4 / 70,000)

Compare this with the most expensive running cost of most cars being fuel at around 16.8c/km (12L/100km x $1.40/L). The equivalent of using 0.5L/100km less fuel.

I also expect to get significantly better fuel economy from the Michelins. Since I expect at least 90% of my kms to be on bitumen roads of some description, this is a valid consideration IMHO.

Along with some people describing the AT-s as "noisy", or "a bit noisy", and others describing their on-road handling as "good, but not as good as normal road tyre". I suspect that the noise will irritate me :iconwink:. I am also not prepared to compromise with on-road handling and braking. Having followed you on the open road, I know I am more of a lead-foot than you are :lol: :lildevil:! So this aspect is very important to me.

Considering the stuff that even the P7s took me through at Bunyip and Noojee, I think that I can live with the compromises that are made with the Michelins for off-road use. Tweaksta reported not a single puncture or stake in about 4,000 kms of rocks and off-road stuff. That level of puncture resistance is probably sufficient for me. Others have reported punctures/staking with the Yokis, so it can happen to them as well.

BTW, I just got the letter from the Police notifying me that the infringement notice for a piddling 5 km/h over on Eastlink has been withdrawn, and turned into an "Official Warning".
One does need to ask why this took from 9 Feb 12 to 5 Apr 12 to ascertain; considering that I have an absolutely 'clean' record for over 10 years ... (zero infringements, or alleged infringements ... ).
Make-work?
 
With regards wheel alignment, you can buy a camber/caster alignment tool for not much more than a single wheel alignment. Combine that with some trusty string and you can save quite a bit into the future on wheel alignments. I'm looking into doing just that.
 
Gidday Rally

With regards wheel alignment, you can buy a camber/caster alignment tool for not much more than a single wheel alignment. Combine that with some trusty string and you can save quite a bit into the future on wheel alignments. I'm looking into doing just that.

This will almost certainly be the last one Roo2 ever has done.
Roo1 had its first very minor correction done on one wheel only after nearly 18 years and 240,000 kms.

Shane at the Bridgestone dealer said that they should check all 4 because of the age/mileage of the car when I put the last set of tyres on it (about 230,000 kms); but only charge me for wheels that needed adjustment.
Very decent of him, IMNSHO ...
 
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