Champaign Charlie

Now with a name, cargo barrier and a good 'scrub', my 05 manual NA 'Safety' Outback is being prepped for our Cameron Corner trip.

I will use this Journal to record whatever 'tweaks' I think of / implement, what works and what doesn't. Comments and questions welcome along the way.

Right now off to bed - 5.00am start to try and get good AFL Preliminary Finals tickets. "Go the Mighty Magpies!" :iconwink:

 

[Venom]

I don't think your king springs are failing. They had your car in stock form unloaded sitting perfectly level, as they should. Since those photos you've added a fuel and spare tyre carrier. Just moving the spare tyre further away from the rear "axle" means its weight has additional leverage on the rear suspension. E.g. a 20kg tyre directly over the rear suspension applies 20kgs of force, move it 750mm away and its probably applying more like 40 or 60kgs of force. Add on top of that the weight of the carrier itself, which is also sitting past the bumpers and leveraging its weight. All of that is probably the equivilent to having the back of your cargo area pretty heavily loaded. Then once you start actually adding cargo luggage those springs would be taking much more weight than what they were designed for.

I'm not sure if your new lift blocks will be longer. I wouldn't be compensating for spring sag with a lift block, its compensating for the problem and not addressing it directly. Ideally you'd just have a spring rated as such that your car is level unloaded (with carriers), and only starts to sag once you begin loading it up. As your car is demonstrating its gotta be heavier than just a standard HD spring. Where you would get them i don't know, i think pedders or kings could supply something rated higher than just the normal HD spring. I reckon you need something close to what you would need if towing a car on a trailer.

Doing a quick google apparently KMAC do custom springs and they have a good reputation.

 

[Dulagarl]

^ this is true. I notice significant increase in the rear height when I remove the spare wheel from the carrier.

Also, you can get heavier duty springs from kings, which I have. Also think Kevin and Mr Turbo have them. They come with an "SP" suffix.

 

[Barry]

I don't think your king springs are failing. They had your car in stock form unloaded sitting perfectly level, as they should. Since those photos you've added a fuel and spare tyre carrier. Just moving the spare tyre further away from the rear "axle" means its weight has additional leverage on the rear suspension. E.g. a 20kg tyre directly over the rear suspension applies 20kgs of force, move it 750mm away and its probably applying more like 40 or 60kgs of force. Add on top of that the weight of the carrier itself, which is also sitting past the bumpers and leveraging its weight. All of that is probably the equivilent to having the back of your cargo area pretty heavily loaded. Then once you start actually adding cargo luggage those springs would be taking much more weight than what they were designed for.

I'm not sure if your new lift blocks will be longer. I wouldn't be compensating for spring sag with a lift block, its compensating for the problem and not addressing it directly. Ideally you'd just have a spring rated as such that your car is level unloaded (with carriers), and only starts to sag once you begin loading it up. As your car is demonstrating its gotta be heavier than just a standard HD spring. Where you would get them i don't know, i think pedders or kings could supply something rated higher than just the normal HD spring. I reckon you need something close to what you would need if towing a car on a trailer.

Doing a quick google apparently KMAC do custom springs and they have a good reputation.

^ this is true. I notice significant increase in the rear height when I remove the spare wheel from the carrier.

Also, you can get heavier duty springs from kings, which I have. Also think Kevin and Mr Turbo have them. They come with an "SP" suffix.

Yep, I agree, the carriers and the additional spare certainly contribute.

I have been thinking about the heavier Kingsprings. I s'pose that is the correct sequence to do things. First the new springs, then see what height I need to make the new lift blocks to 'fine tune' the ride height.

Hopefully having the heavier springs in the rear won't create a handling issue when travelling un-loaded. ???

Now my mate has a hoist changing them in and out won't be any 'biggie' either.

 

[mr turbo]

I notice significant increase in the rear height when I remove the spare wheel from the carrier.

Also, you can get heavier duty springs from kings, which I have. Also think Kevin and Mr Turbo have them. They come with an "SP" suffix.

Yes Kevin has the extra, heavier duty springs. I was going to get them too, but due to this, that & the other, never got around to it

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Venom

I don't think your king springs are failing. They had your car in stock form unloaded sitting perfectly level, as they should. Since those photos you've added a fuel and spare tyre carrier. Just moving the spare tyre further away from the rear "axle" means its weight has additional leverage on the rear suspension. E.g. a 20kg tyre directly over the rear suspension applies 20kgs of force, move it 750mm away and its probably applying more like 40 or 60kgs of force. Add on top of that the weight of the carrier itself, which is also sitting past the bumpers and leveraging its weight. All of that is probably the equivilent to having the back of your cargo area pretty heavily loaded. Then once you start actually adding cargo luggage those springs would be taking much more weight than what they were designed for.

I'm not sure if your new lift blocks will be longer. I wouldn't be compensating for spring sag with a lift block, its compensating for the problem and not addressing it directly. Ideally you'd just have a spring rated as such that your car is level unloaded (with carriers), and only starts to sag once you begin loading it up. As your car is demonstrating its gotta be heavier than just a standard HD spring. Where you would get them i don't know, i think pedders or kings could supply something rated higher than just the normal HD spring. I reckon you need something close to what you would need if towing a car on a trailer.

Doing a quick google apparently KMAC do custom springs and they have a good reputation.

All good thinking, and food for thought.

Does any of this apply if one has the self-levelling suspension that is on my Fox, Roo2?

 

[Barry]

I had the SL rear struts, they won't work with longer springs or a lift. I still have a perfectly good set is anyone wants them!

 

[Dulagarl]

I had the SL rear struts, they won't work with longer springs or a lift. I still have a perfectly good set is anyone wants them!

in my experience there is no such thing. I used to think they were OK, but not anymore.

 

[Barry]

Yes Kevin has the extra, heavier duty springs. I was going to get them too, but due to this, that & the other, never got around to it

Regards
Mr Turbo

IIRC, these are heavier, but NOT longer, so would work fine with 50mm camber off-set strut lifts. (With which I intend to replace my current 25mm subtlesolutions lift blocks.)

 

[taza]

IIRC, these are heavier, but NOT longer, so would work fine with 50mm camber off-set strut lifts. (With which I intend to replace my current 25mm subtlesolutions lift blocks.)

Barry how is this going?
Are you replacing your springs with stiffer HD ones then adding the 50mm blocks?

 

[Barry]

Strange you should ask Taza, the lift arrived today, looks great. Now I just have to book in the changeover. Will get them to order in the springs as well.
Once it is done I will have a barely used set of subtlesolutions 25mm lift blocks and longer KingSprings, to fit an 05-08 Outback for sale on the forum.
The 25mm blocks and longer springs are a good set up. Handle really well on road. I just need the heavier springs for the loads I carry off-road and when hauling my camper trailer.

 

[Barry]

D@mn!
Thought I'd posted somewhere about what the maximum braked weight and ball weight is for my 2.5l Outback to tow...
Just can't find it....

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Barry

According to the brochures, the 2.5L OB and 2.0L Forester both had the same unbraked trailer weight of 500 Kgs. The braked weight was 1400 & 1300 Kgs respectively.

This cannot be right, as the 2.5L Fox is UB = 720 Kgs; B = 1400; with the 2003 Fox being some 50 Kgs (tare) lighter than your OB.

Check the Owner's Manual. It should have the details.

You could call into your local Subaru dealer and ask them ...
They MIGHT know, depending on who you get ...

I reckon that you would be dead safe at UB = 720~750 Kgs and B = 1400 Kgs (as per the brochure for the latter).

For the MY06 Fox, the maximum permissible ball weight is 75 Kgs. Personally, I wouldn't exceed about 45~50 kgs with either your car or mine.

Also according to the OM, one should not exceed 80 kmh while towing anything! Now that really has to be a joke ... :iconwink: :lol: :rotfl:
I have usually kept my speed under 130 kmh while towing ...
Seriously, I have never had any problems towing anything at 100~110 kmh.

 

[Barry]

Thanks Ratbag,

I'm l'm pretty sure that the un-braked weight is 750kg.

Looking at an off-road Heaslip (South Ausie) rear folding soft floor camper, it is a seriously nice piece of kit.

'Dry' tare of 750 kg, ball weight ~90 kg.
Springs are rated at 1250kg, but all up weight would be less than 1000kg.

Trailer has over- ride hydraulic brakes, so un-braked weight is not an issue.

I will fit heavy duty KingSprings when I fit my new 2" lift, so that should assist in compensating for the ball weight.

Also, if I re-shoe to Subi wheels, I won't need to carry a spare on the draw bar, which should also assist in reducing the ball weight. :biggrin:

 

[Ratbag]

G'day again Barry

Had a decko at their web site. Look to be nice kit.

What sort of price range are they? Look expensive ...

I would be very inclined not to ditch the trailer spare ... I mounted mine vertically.
In an emergent situation, I could ditch the trailer, taking all wheels and tyres (and water and food) and run for home.

I would also try to get the ball weight well down from 90 Kgs! This sort of weight on the rear of the car will really screw up the rear axle loading, and provide far too much lift on the front axle, specially given the leverage. IMO, at a guess, such a ball weight would breach the axle load ratings for the car.

With my tandem axle horse float, I tried hard to get the ball height precisely horizontal, with almost no load on the ball at all. I know that tandems are different, but the principle is still sound. One is not in danger of breaking trailer axles/wheel bearings with a single-axle trailer, but the legal requirements of the overall car and trailer axle loadings are so precise that you need a weighbridge to check that you comply!!!!

 

[Barry]

Heaslip Camper Trailer

Yes, very nice RB,

With 2 spares on the car and the 2 trailer tyres I actually have a 'complete change' to take off 'bob-tailed', if I need to.

I understand that it is (was - they owners have now retired) possible to get a boat carrier. I intend to buy / build a modified one to carry my roof basket. I can then adjust the basket and its load fore and aft to balance the ball weight.

Certainly wont be carrying jerry cans forward of the trailer body. However, that front load area seems like a good spot to carry bicycles.
The 90 amp hour battery on mine is also mounted in a battery box half way along the draw bar.

Moving all that weight back against the front of the trailer - under the centre of the bikes / above the axle line will also assist in reducing ball weight. (Anyone who has ever performed 'rest on arms' with a Lee Enfield .303 knows how weight is magnified the further it is from the pivot point, which in this case is the axle line.)

As to price, new they were $20,000 plus. I'll be picking this one up for less than half that price! :biggrin: Includes just the small kitchen fly / annexe, however intend to bur / have made a full annexe as well.

I actually prefer the kitchen fly - prefer to be outside, rather than in a canvas 'house'.

Here is a link to an article by Ron Moon on Heaslip campers. https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/reviews/2007/camping-trailers/heaslip-campers-20806

While I take a lot of salt with much of what he writes on other subjects - e.g. 12 volt electrics - he does have a good understanding of camper trailers, IMO.

All the reports I have read from those who have owned say they are first rate.

Also, given the design, there is ZERO chance of anyone removing the compliance plate and trying to pass it off for registration as their own 'home built' trailer with an OzTrak tent on top!

Given recent events, THAT is a real consideration for me!

 

[tuckerbag]

With the subaru supplied standard tow bar on my Gen 3 OB, it say "maximum tow bar capacity 1400kgs, maximum tow ball download 90kgs".

Hope it helps you Barry.

 

[Barry]

With the subaru supplied standard tow bar on my Gen 3 OB, it say "maximum tow bar capacity 1400kgs, maximum tow ball download 90kgs".

Hope it helps you Barry.

Thanks for that Tuckerbag!

The Gen 3 has the smaller 'square' hitch mount, with the bar running under / outside the bumper skin, if I recall correctly. Mine has the 2" square hitch, with the bar running above / inside the bumper skin.

Not that either of those variables should make any difference to either capacity.

Total weight will definitely be well below 1400kgs - consistent with trailer specs. Will utilise 'load shifting' to get the ball weight correct.