Upgrade with Ironman springs?

Maarten

Maarten

Forum Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2020
Messages
10
Location
Netherlands
Car Year
2010
Car Model
Forester SH
Transmission
4EAT
I would like to upgrade my suspension with the ironman performance load springs. Does anyone use them here?
The product says it is incompatible with the SLS, so if i understand correctly I should also change the struts with for example KYB's?
 
Thanks, I will try and report back how they are.
 
Maarten said:
Thanks, I will try and report back how they are.
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Maarten, Bilstein offers monotube shocks for Subarus in the US now. You sure you cannot get some?

If you mean standard KYB shocks, those are awful, basic, aftermarket shocks. We run Excel G on the Tribeca, which are almost identical to the stock KYB it had from Subaru. Yes, I have offroaded extensively on stock Subaru shocks and these aftermarket KYB would be just as dreadful. My Outback shocks were technically functional at 70000 miles (112,000 km) but just because twin tubes do not leak easily that does not mean they perform. I was not happy at all with how they felt way before they got to 70k.

You will want monotube shocks or higher-quality twin tubes (at a minimum). I am no fan of the Ironman setups sold in the US (heavy springs, very soft shocks whereas the opposite is far better for performance) but at least Ironman can make offroad capable shocks.

Dobinsons, OME, Ironman are, for obvious reasons, weight and endurance oriented. US setups with Bilsteins/Fox/Kings/Icons are more performance oriented as everyone dreams of racing in Baja 1000 lol. An entry level Bilstein shock is a nice Swiss knife just as the Subaru itself.

Monotubes will help with road cornering and handling as well though how much will depend on their valving.
 
Hi, thanks I will consider the bilstein shocks/ ironman spring combination. My ultimate goal is reliabilty and being able to cary much more in the boot.
 
Maarten said:
Hi, thanks I will consider the bilstein shocks/ ironman spring combination. My ultimate goal is reliabilty and being able to cary much more in the boot.
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Ideally, you will want to first see if anyone offers well matched shocks and springs.

If you have to mix and match, you have to be sure about spring rates and what these mean for your intended use.

The general rule of thumb is to focus on the shocks and understand you may need to change springs as needs/wants change.

In the case of Ironman, be extra careful with spring rates because of the brand's tendency to match stiff springs with soft shocks.
 
Did some more research and contacted the bilstein importer here in NL who sent me a nice quote. So what I’ve learned so far. Ironman is stiff, Bilstein B6 is stiff so to me that sounds like a good combo to start. We plan to get an rooftoptent, cooler and a lot of other camping gear and travel to central Asia so that will involve a lot off added weight. The suspension at the moment is too comfy and it drives more like a boat.
 
Ha! That sounds like an amazing expedition!

That's the specialty of Australians so you should get some really insightful suggestions now that you have stated your goal. By the same token, the Australian companies like OME, Dobinsons, and Ironman specialize in endurance products.

If I were doing that, I would go like this:

1/ Reliability: as stock as possible with all critical parts good or replaced, such as CVs.
2/ Minimum lift, maybe 1"?
3/ Springs and shocks that can take a beating.
4/ Expedition gear that is really practical and as light as possible.
5/ Essential spares, etc, but also keeping the weight as low as possible.

When it comes to 3/ shocks and springs in light of your needs, that actually poses a question:

What are your anticipated offroad speeds? Twin-tube shocks are "sincere" shocks in terms of performance: they just don't perform well which keeps your speeds lower. They are "cheater" shocks in terms of failing: they start performing even worse but they do not technically fail easily, which means they end up as "durable" (get you home and then some). Mono-tubes are the opposite. They are "sincere" shocks when they stop performing: they start leaking. Sometimes, you can drive 1000s of km that way, sometimes, they need an immediate replacement. Monotubes, at the same time, are deceptive shocks when it comes to performance. Even lower end monotubes can perform really well over short distances which can lure you to think you can just keep going fast for a long time. But you cannot unless you buy shocks far superior to what is available for Subarus. So a monotube can lure you to go faster than you should.

Therefore, you will need to think about the springs and the shocks in terms of how they would work in concert and then also consider twin tubes vs monotubes in terms of this particular expedition.

What shocks does Ironman offer with those springs? That may be a better combination for this particular expedition than an Ironman/Bilstein combo. You really have no reason to run an overly stiff setup up with a stock front.

Back to the Bilstein shocks that I recommended earlier, those work extremely well with Eibach springs. An added benefit to Eibach or Bilstein branded springs is that they don't have to settle like the OME/DObs/Ironman springs. In my experience--3 Eibach spring sets of which 2 Bilstein branded--there was no settling at all.

So a Bilstein/Eibach combo would be best for road and performance offroading as well as rocky offroading. However, an Ironman setup could be best for an expedition setup. You will have to look at your options in as much detail as you can.
 
Hi, thanks for your insight. The strange thing with ironman is that they offer the performance load springs for my forester and do claim an increased load of 200 kg rear and 100 kg in the front while having a 0.8 inch lift. But they don’t sell shocks like they do for other years. So I think in the end the car will have oem height when loaded. But all our gear is going to be the lightest available.

With regards to speed, we will stick to existing roads and I tend do drive a bit slow abroad. However one of those existing roads will be the Pamir Highway.
 
@Maarten,

By speeds I mean off-pavement, yes, specifically roads with severe and/or very long stretches of washboard or high-clearance/4x4 trails. It is those conditions that separate the shocks in tiers.

So Ironman are telling you to use the stock shocks? That's ridiculous. But, yeah, Subarus are rarely taken seriously, unfortunately. You need to know their spring rates and you need to ask Bilstein what springs they recommend for their shocks. Chances are they say OEM, which is what they do with entry level ones.

You may be able to use the Bilstein with the Ironman but you will want to know about exact lift Ironman provides, their spring rates, and you will want to calculate where the piston of the shock will be in the shock body. Basically, you want to be at the optimal position when the car is at rest. Say, if the shock can do 0" lift to 1" lift, your ideal position is 0.5" lift and anything above 1" would be an issue.

Maybe check out this: Pre-built Subaru Strut Lift Kits | RalliTEK.com . And see if you can get the shocks from Bilstein locally and maybe the springs from the US?

It will be a phenomenal expedition so worth preparing as best you can! The stock shocks on Ironman springs will be basically just surviving and that's all. At best.
 
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Also, what tires do you plan on using? A stiff suspension would work well with LT tires. If you do prefer passenger tires, sportier tires rated for higher speeds will likely be more puncture resistant and certainly handle better than generic passenger tires. At least this is my experience. I would not use regular passanger tires with a heavy vehicle and on roads like those you expect to travel.
 
@MiddleAgeSubie I'm not sure about the puncture resistance thing being true. Faster tires tend to be more supple. Higher thread counts, thin belts, with thin casings result in lower rolling resistance. You may be less likely to have a blowout due to heat, but you're not less likely to get a puncture.
 
Right. I would personally totally get LT tires for that trip and the upgraded suspension should handle them well. However, in @Rally 's extensive experience in Australia as well as in our on-street experience, V rated or higher tires do actually offer higher puncture resistance as they can have more plies than normal P metric tires in the same size. They also have stiffer sidewalls.

It is anecdotal, but Rally has used high-end street tires over rough terrain for a long time. We all gave him a hard time (pushing AT) but he remained steadfast. Also, our only street P metric tires to never suffer a puncture on road were of that type.

Again, LT tires would be totally better for a trip like that. I just don't know what is available for a Forester in the Netherlands.
 
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@MiddleAgeSubie rally racers definitely get flats. Their tires are fast and it's generally worth the risk of flats for more speed. Rough terrain for gravel is very different then off-roading with really sharp rocks and things though. I know when I was racing bikes professionally, we used the most fragile tires we could MAYBE get away with for every possible advantage. We trained on hearty stuff though.
*More plies don't always mean more puncture resistance. The thread count is a factor too.
 
@Veganpotter
Please stay on point. It is an amazing expedition that is being planned so let's try to contribute and not get bogged into detail about tires generally. I never passed what I said about sportier tires as a scientific fact. I did highlight that it is my experience and Rally's. That they may prove more puncture resistant as a byproduct of being V rated is a good enough reason to get V over H, if for some reason LT is not an option.

So, to return to the main point, shocks, springs, and tires all work together and need to be chosen in relation to one another.

A combination of springs strong enough to carry the weight but not excessively stiff, monotube Bilstein shocks or Australian-brand offroad twin tube shocks, and LT tires seem the ticket.

The question is what is available for a Forester in the Netherlands and what is available within the available time limit because tons of products are on backorder worldwide.

If Ironman and Bilstein are all that is easily available, then Maarten needs to figure out:

--Ironman springs rates vs stock
--Ironman lift
--allowable lift range for the Bilsteins

I guess that thin, lightweight aluminum skids should do the job for this trip, if available.
 
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The Bilstein B6 would appear to be a good choice but as MAS said you would need to ensure matching springs. Maybe even contact Bilstein and ask what is the ideal spring rating for the B6. If you want to ensure a comfortable ride and reduce rear sag then a lift kit would be good; @NachaLuva can help with that aspect.
Maarten said:
Pamir Highway
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Now that's exciting!
 
Hi all, thanks for the good discussion. Do have a skid plate already! Problem with many parts is that Subaru is a very small brand here since we have no mountains and only this week snow. Therefore not much stuff is available. Falken wildpeak at3w are available here. Any experience with those?
 
Just to add I’m not in a hurry 2022 is the year to go, now working on the budget etc.
 
Maarten said:
Falken wildpeak at3w are available here. Any experience with those?
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I've got no experience with them, but they do have a pretty good reputation.
If we could get the right size here, I'd seriously consider them for my next set.
 
Maarten said:
Hi all, thanks for the good discussion. Do have a skid plate already! Problem with many parts is that Subaru is a very small brand here since we have no mountains and only this week snow. Therefore not much stuff is available. Falken wildpeak at3w are available here. Any experience with those?
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Oh, OK, then, 2022. That's a lot different, you got me scared you needed a solution soon! Yes, I have extensive experience with the AT3W in all sorts of trail conditions except deep mud. I used P/SL At3W on my 4Runner before switching to LTE Mickey Thompson ATZ P3 due to where I live.

The AT3W is great on dirt and rock and also on pavement. It is not that great in sand but the Subaru itself is, so there is that. Same for urban snow. It was great on snow covered trails, in deeper, unbroken snow. Of course, that was on a completely different vehicle. I have a friend who used them on an Outback and found them too heavy duty though he offroads a lot. He did not love them in the snow.

I would say that they would be great for your planned trip. I did not expect it to be available in the Netherlands. It is a stronger tire with more aggressive thread than a typical P metric At. What makes it stronger is the extra wide steel belts. The AT3W should be tough enough without the weight of LT tires. Bear in mind that it is a low-tech tire so it is extremely heavy in LT sizes without having any extra plies vs other LT tires.

That said, you should check the weight of P metric AT3W vs LT tires from other brands. If you are very heavy, you may prefer the LT tire, ideally an LTC though I am not sure how they are labeled in Europe....

Speaking of P metric, the newest is the Toyo Open Country AT III which should be outstanding knowing Toyo in general and the AT II, specifically, which I had on a Tribeca.
 
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