Replacement for dead Forester with offroad capabilities

[Beachworm]

Interesting video. There is no doubt that Rally's Forester made it up there easily but I think that my SJ Forester NA with CVT would have got up there without too much problem. It doesn't look harder than some of the tracks I did in the Victorian High Country. It is hard to tell in the video but it looks like a good track either way. Is this part of Rally's special testing track?

To answer the question about the CVT and 2.5L Forester in sand I think you would be surprised how well they go in the sand. Bribie Island was a walk in the park and a week on Fraser Island including the most difficult tracks we could find did not lead to any problems either. It also got me across the Simpson Desert and up Big Red without getting stuck once. My Forester has has a 2 inch lift and larger tyres.

I lean toward the later vehicles simply because of modern comforts and safety improvements and because I just have the one vehicle that does it all for me and mainly gets used in a work setting. It's always had enough power for me and so far I haven't got stuck.

Good thoughts. Welcome to the section of this forum that uses their sole vehicle off road and appreciates modern technology in that context.

 

[Rally]

Interesting video. It doesn't look harder than some of the tracks I did in the Victorian High Country. It is hard to tell in the video but it looks like a good track either way. Is this part of Rally's special testing track?
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I guess you could call it a test track. Each time we go there it gets harder so others use it as well. And they too must struggle because in their attempts to get up there they make the track worse. Look at the holes the SH was making compared to my car. We took an SF there and he tried and tried and no matter which line took he didn’t get very far. I did no better with an open rear diff. The track is a lot harder than it appears on the video.

I like the SJ despite the limited drivetrain options (which is why I wouldn’t buy one) and it can get you to some great places. However, I have seen videos others have taken of it off road and it appears to have similar limitations as the SH. Based on that I suspect the SJ would struggle on this track.

 

[s_t]

Not looking good for another Subie...

Been doing lots of research today. I didn't realise how much 4x4 turbo diesel dual cab utes have improved. Navara and Triton around $35k new for base models, with respective fuel economy of 6.5 and 7.2 combined L/100km (manuals). That's impressive economy - better than I got from the Forester, and with proper 4wd and low range they'll walk over the tough stuff more easily, and tow my 750kg camper like its not there.

 

[jf1sf5]

Many Forester owners go the dual cab ute route, even Rally

I'm looking for a replacement car too....its going to be a '97-'98 SF again !

 

[Rally]

The Ranger isn’t a dual cab ute, but close enough. Had I not been sick there’s no way I’d be selling the Forrie. For driver involvement and enjoyment the Forester is a million miles ahead of the Ranger. Or any other similar vehicle. I’m not saying the Ranger is a bad car. They’re just so different to each other and something the size of a Ranger can never be as nimble as a Forester. Since I put the rear locker in, the Forrie has got me everywhere I needed to go.

 

[Beachworm]

Not looking good for another Subie...

Been doing lots of research today. I didn't realise how much 4x4 turbo diesel dual cab utes have improved. Navara and Triton around $35k new for base models, with respective fuel economy of 6.5 and 7.2 combined L/100km (manuals). That's impressive economy - better than I got from the Forester, and with proper 4wd and low range they'll walk over the tough stuff more easily, and tow my 750kg camper like its not there.

My son-in-law bought a new dual cab Isuzu D Max, put in a 2 inch lift, bigger Cooper tyres, front bar, rock sliders etc. and he has been very happy with it. We go off-roading together so I have been able to make comparisons between his D Max and my Forester. So far he has only ever been stuck once in mud so deep my Forester would have sunk out of sight. On the entry road to Bribie Island, I followed him blindly (past a stranded Navara) and got hung up on the sand between his wheel tracks before I put my lift kit in. Now it wouldn't happen. Generally though, one is about as good as the other off road but in unmodified new vehicle condition, the D Max would be the winner (just).

On road, the Forester wins hands down for a smooth, comfortable ride with safe, predictable handling. The same goes off-road too. The bigger, taller vehicle pitches and rolls much more. I was surprised, however at how much the tarmac ride quality is more like a car than I had imagined.

The D Max is streets ahead in three main areas. Load capacity and the ability to carry a tonne of garden soil or bricks, towing capacity and the amazing support of Isuzu Ute Australia through the I Venture Club. They encourage off-roading and provide free training to new owners. I spent the day with my son-in-law on Moreton Island doing sand driving training, all paid for by Isuzu, including the barge there and back with breakfast and lunch thrown in.

 

[Ben Up North]

and the amazing support of Isuzu Ute Australia through the I Venture Club. They encourage off-roading and provide free training to new owners. I spent the day with my son-in-law on Moreton Island doing sand driving training, all paid for by Isuzu, including the barge there and back with breakfast and lunch thrown in.

That's pretty cool.

 

[ABFoz]

I wouldn't mind off-roading newer Subarus. Many people enjoy Subarus for what they are - Proper AWD, low centre off gravity, symmetrical powertrain, 360 degrees of safety, A-pillars that resist the jaws of life - SGP, decent ground clearance, etc. I know a lot of people who come from 4x4s especially Jeeps who just buy Subarus because they can tackle at least 90% of what the 4x4s play on. MtnRoo has a huge population of newer Subarus (with CVT). They do look like they are enjoying their vehicles and their chapters are rapidly increasing.

If you need that utility at the back, a pickup truck would be best suited to you. They have specs that are more off-road biased than any car-based SUV, but if you really enjoy getting surprised by what a Subaru can do even if it's not intended to do those, there's no harm in testing the new ones. Subarus still drive like cars because they are.

Every vehicle is a compromise and it's more about getting the best compromise for your lifestyle. Cheers.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

My son-in-law bought a new dual cab Isuzu D Max, put in a 2 inch lift, bigger Cooper tyres, front bar, rock sliders etc. and he has been very happy with it. We go off-roading together so I have been able to make comparisons between his D Max and my Forester. So far he has only ever been stuck once in mud so deep my Forester would have sunk out of sight. On the entry road to Bribie Island, I followed him blindly (past a stranded Navara) and got hung up on the sand between his wheel tracks before I put my lift kit in. Now it wouldn't happen. Generally though, one is about as good as the other off road but in unmodified new vehicle condition, the D Max would be the winner (just).

On road, the Forester wins hands down for a smooth, comfortable ride with safe, predictable handling. The same goes off-road too. The bigger, taller vehicle pitches and rolls much more. I was surprised, however at how much the tarmac ride quality is more like a car than I had imagined.

The D Max is streets ahead in three main areas. Load capacity and the ability to carry a tonne of garden soil or bricks, towing capacity and the amazing support of Isuzu Ute Australia through the I Venture Club. They encourage off-roading and provide free training to new owners. I spent the day with my son-in-law on Moreton Island doing sand driving training, all paid for by Isuzu, including the barge there and back with breakfast and lunch thrown in.

That was an interesting read. I have watched some episodes of the Australian 4WD show where the lead guy drives a D-Max. It seemed to me that it is more like my former Outback in action than like my current Toyota. It gets through almost everything but with lots of wheel spin and what on TV seems like a traction control system that leaves something to be desired though that might be an illusion.

What the Isuzu lacks in the episodes I have seen is the kind of control and nonchalant rock-crawling prowess of 120, 150 platform Toyotas which is closer to that of Wranglers than to any other competition I have seen. I have dragged my 3/16 steel skids climbing and I have a feeling the Toyota will tear itself apart but get over whereas other vehicles would just spin (and a Subaru stands no chance without @Rally level mods).

On street, even my off-road oriented 4Runner is by no means inferior in terms of ride quality to any Subaru (had a new loaner Ascent 10 days ago or so). The Ascent is very similar in ride quality to my former Outback. I have actually wrestled with that question--which one has a more comfy ride? The reality for me is that Subaru wins when cornering over uneven pavement and other similar where the rear solid axle of the 4R is a deficiency. However, most of the time, the 4R offers better ride quality as it absorbs everything better.

Cornering and handling on pavement and dirt is another story. But the same is not true of ride quality. The 4R's ride quality offroad is eons ahead of Subarus. Indeed, while my little one has always been into offroading, my older one only fully got into it after we got the 4R. He finds it way less bumpy over rough terrain than the rear of the Outback. And the Tribeca is unbearable for more than short distances unless you are on a nice and smooth track or in sand.

In general, I would dispute the equation between cars and ride quality when it comes to current models. US trucks especially can be supremely comfortable and be nothing like a traditional work truck. They also often beat the vast majority of cars and crossovers in straight line acceleration.

I am not actually trying to make a point, for a change, just adding info to a good conversation.

 

[Rally]

Many people enjoy Subarus for what they are - Proper AWD, low centre off gravity, symmetrical powertrain, 360 degrees of safety, A-pillars that resist the jaws of life - SGP, decent ground clearance, etc.
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Yes, very true. What baffles me is that there are those who modify their cars and negate almost all the advantages a Subaru has by trying to make it into something it will never be, a “real” 4wd.

 

[Beachworm]

Middleaged subie said, " It gets through almost everything but with lots of wheel spin and what on TV seems like a traction control system that leaves something to be desired though that might be an illusion. "

I think this might have more to do with editing of the film than anything else. Wheelspin and crashes are the formula to make coverage of any kind of motorsport successful. From my observations in the real world I would say that my Forester wheelspins a touch more than the D max though that could have something to do with the Cooper tyres.

Having said that, on loose gravel the Forester only allows about half a wheel revolution before drive is transferred to another wheel. With traction control off which is always recommended in off-road travel, wheelspin is more frequent on loose surfaces and in sand.

 

[Beachworm]

Yes, very true. What baffles me is that there are those who modify their cars and negate almost all the advantages a Subaru has by trying to make it into something it will never be, a “real” 4wd.

I'm certainly happy with the Subaru off-road experience but I understand where the people you mention are coming from. Their cars are projects and although they could probably afford to have a Hilux they find their fun in the challenge of getting the underdog to shock the sceptics. Keeping on-road driveability close to standard Subaru levels isn't a priority. Your preferred option also imposes a cost barrier on most people because anyone who has ever modified a car and tried to sell it knows they have to swallow a loss.

 

[MiddleAgeSubie]

Middleaged subie said, "

I think this might have more to do with editing of the film than anything else. .

Great point, no doubt that editing matters for films to sell.

But it does spin more than the other vehicles in the group, which have lockers. Same with mine. A few times I have been caught not using the locker where I should have, the aggressive traction control notwithstanding.

Which leads me to another point: the Subaru can spin and fail a spot but a 4x4 lacking that low center of gravity can also slide sideways. So, my experience is confirming what we have been talking about here: that in certain situations the traditional 4x4s NEED more traction than a Subaru.

I am not surprised that Rally is so adamant about the capability of his Forester. With the Subaru pluses in addition to center and rear locks, he would only be limited by angles and clearance. And the Forester with a small lift has decent angles and very good clearance. It is also small and with a short wheelbase.

Of course, that is a bit unfair in comparisons because these are very serious modifications well above what a typical consumer would be willing to do, especially on a new/ish vehicle.

 

[ABFoz]

My son-in-law bought a new dual cab Isuzu D Max, put in a 2 inch lift, bigger Cooper tyres, front bar, rock sliders etc. and he has been very happy with it.

I would get the Isuzu too because it's the most industrial of them all and I have happy memories with my old Bighorn, in terms of ride and maintenance. Those engines are top notch. Also, if I am to find an intersection between my SG and a '93 NPR 4x4 with the 4BC2, which I used for rock crawling, It would be the D-Max - same utilitarian interior but it also has a lot of engineering queues that it inherits from Isuzu's industrial trucks, especially in the powertrain and chassis.

Some people have already modded their D-Maxes to have the manual regen that is found in the bigger Isuzus and that, I think, is a heavenly mod, especially if the truck does a lot of city or low-speed duty. I am not sure if the manual regen is an option in newer D-Maxes now.

I'm certainly happy with the Subaru off-road experience but I understand where the people you mention are coming from. Their cars are projects and although they could probably afford to have a Hilux they find their fun in the challenge of getting the underdog to shock the sceptics.

Yes. The less angles and ground clearance, the more driver input. It's the same statement that I hear from those that went from 4x4s to Subarus.

That was an interesting read. I have watched some episodes of the Australian 4WD show where the lead guy drives a D-Max. It seemed to me that it is more like my former Outback in action than like my current Toyota. It gets through almost everything but with lots of wheel spin and what on TV seems like a traction control system that leaves something to be desired though that might be an illusion.

In some markets, factory lockers are installed. I am not sure if NZ/OZ can have that option though.

I think what the segment is showcasing what the almost bottom-trim D-Max can do with its traction-control 4wding.

 

[Beachworm]

Middleagedsubie said "Of course, that is a bit unfair in comparisons because these are very serious modifications well above what a typical consumer would be willing to do, especially on a new/ish vehicle."

It seems to me that Subaru enthusiasts in general prefer to spend as little money as possible on their vehicles. There are a few exceptions but you only have to look at the posts on this forum where people enthuse about how cheaply they managed to accomplish a modification. I'm not sure that new Subaru buyers are exactly the same as we don't hear from too many of them here.

The Subaru enthusiast approach seems quite different to people in the wider off-road community. I know quite a few who invest big dollars in old rigs. I was talking to someone the other day who bought a near new Toyota Prado and immediately spent $22,000 on modifications including front and rear lockers.

 

[Kevin]

Maybe I'm an exception but no mods on my Foz have ever been done "cheaply" ;-) Well maybe the snorkel.

Just the bars were $5K; many thousands on suspension; replacement wheels; rear drawers; the list goes on!

 

[Red XS]

Assuming it's All4Adventure that MAS is talking about, that series has really demonstrated how much faster Toyota's traction control acts in comparison with Isuzu's. And it is the reaction times that allow some cars traction controls to be comparable to lockers, while others like Subaru's are still a long way off.



All of my modifications have been about making the car go as good as possible offroad with out any compromise onroad. Hence my fancy 22mm swaybar cable disconnect and Hotbits DT2 coilovers and refusal to run AT's. I pretty much spend what I can afford on my hobby. I have noticed many people in the offroading Subaru community don't appreciate the cost of some of the heavily modified 4wds.

 

[s_t]

I'm an engineer, and like 'efficiency' (generally, not specifically fuel efficiency). So getting a smaller car/vehicle (like a Forester, with small low cost mods) to be able to go where larger more expensive less fuel effficient vehicles (ie. the typical 4x4) frequent appeals as an interesting and worthwhile challenge. Do more with less type attitude.

My Forester died 70km north of townsville on the way to Atherton. We hired a Colorado dual cab for 10 days. Certainly nothing wrong, hard, or unpleasant about driving a modern 4x4 vehicle like that. May not be ideal on the race track, but perfectly good for general road use in my view. The Colorado isn't that great on fuel, but other dual cabs are better (than it and the Forester).

 

[Subaru Man]

I agree with the idea of part of the fun being doing tracks that people don't expect me to be able to do since I'm driving a Subaru.

I have no plans to turn my SJ into something that it is not meant to be (as in massive lift or wheels). I think that the 2 inch lift is still reasonably subtle and I never noticed much difference if any in driving the car before or after. I am / was running two sets of tyres but since my road tyres have worn out I haven't bothered replacing them yet as my Yokohama GO15's don't seem to make any more noise or have less on-road grip than the stock Geolandars.

Getting back to the test track it would be good to be involved in something like that. It would be good to see what the limits of each vehicle are with and without any traction devices. It is best to get stuck in like-minded company!

Other than being quite the drive if there was plenty of notice I would consider making a trip of it from Qld. Over a holiday period would be ideal to allow time to get there and back!

 

[Rally]

June long weekend perhaps?