Replacement for dead Forester with offroad capabilities

s_t

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Oct 5, 2011
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My '99 forester died over the Christmas holidays, over-heating and cooking itself on our way to Cairns (from Brisbane). It needed other work too, so not worth fixing. Left it with a farmer as a paddock basher! Now thinking about what to replace it with.

The Forester did a lot of work offroad, initially in Vic high country, but over the last decade more on the beach - Fraser Is., Bribie Is. etc. It even lead a offroadsubarus.com group get together up through Teewah beach area over a decade ago.

Had a 2" strut top lift, along with custom made sump and fuel tank guards. Manual with the 1:1.4 low range. A good vehicle that went far further bush than most expect, but two main limitations:

1. lack of torque, especially at low revs offroad. I've got lots of sand driving experience, but in dry soft sand it was possible to run out of grunt, especially if towing. I've been bogged in situations where I literally would rev the guts out of it and dump the clutch, and barely get a spin of the wheels. None of this digging deep holes mindlessly spinning the wheels like novice 4wd'ers do - not enough torque to do that :lol: Also ran out of grunt towing the camper trailer (a pretty light one) up steep hills.

2. Clearance. On deep rough rutted sandy roads, sometimes felt the sand slamming into the floor panels under our feet! Depsite the lift!

I'm looking for a replacement second hand vehicle. Reasonably priced and fuel efficient. Doesn't need to be big.

I can cope with similar clearance to what I had in the lifted Forester, but more would be better. Good driving and a bit of a lift can get around most clearance issues.

I want better usable low end torque for offroad though. Proper low range is one obvious solution, but no obvious candidates that aren't much larger, expensive, or poor on fuel efficiency. Turbo diesels like the Challenger or possibly Isuzu Mux probably the closest.

I've never driven an auto offroad. How does an auto Forester compare to a manual with the 1:1.44 low range in the sand? Less or more torque when taking off from stop in soft sand? Does the torque converter make up for the gearing difference in terms of torque at the wheels? Better or worse?

What about the XV with the CVT? Do they still have a torque converter? How's the CVT in the sand? I'm guessing it would be limiting for serious sand travel?

I guess the other factor is the powerplant - the 2.0L in the Forester was clearly at its limits. Not sure how much different the 2.5L boxer would be?

I really like the concept that Jeep have done with the Compass Trailhawk, where they stuck an extra low first gear into a 9 speed automatic, which gives it similar low ratio to a traditional dual range 4x4, but in a small compact light and fuel efficient vehicle. New model though, so none around cheap for second hand.

Are there any other options or vehicles that I'm missing? I kind of want to go up a step in capability from the Forester, but the next step seems to be much bigger heavier fuel sucking 4x4's. Suzuki's are small and light, but chew through the fuel and aren't what I'm after. Any comments on Subarus that might be a improvement on the limitations my '99 Forester had?
 
Pity it didn't get to Cairns, I'd have like to get hold of that low range.:) [MENTION=44]Rally[/MENTION] has a rocking SG for sale. they're in my opinion the most capable of the foresters as a base and what he has done to his makes it extraordinary. If you want to stay away from guzzlers, that's my recommendation, buy Rally's SG.
It's a bargain for the price, I wish I had the money spare to buy it.
 
Yes, my Forester is for sale. You can read about it here. https://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=2091 and here
https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/de...m_source=notification-center&utm_medium=email

You can also contact the mechanic responsible for much of the work done to it. Dave is a specialist Subaru mechanic who is relocating his business to Queensland (about 30 mins from central Brisbane I think) in the coming weeks. It will be known as Gold Coast Subaru, his number is 0418 648 105. He can answer all your questions on the car. Which if you bought the car could give you peace of mind as he would not be too far from you.

Your biggest concern seemed to be the lack of torque from the old 2 litre SF engine, and gearing. I can assure you that with this engine, you will have all the torque you will need. And I think even better gearing as my car has 4.44 diff gears and 1.446 low range, where I think the SF has 4.11 diff gears. The 0.738 5th gear more than offsets that for better highway cruising. Taller gearing for the highway, shorter gearing for off road. Best of both worlds. Then there are the diffs that make the car so capable off road. The combination of a great engine, dual range, front lsd, dccd and rear e locker is unique anywhere in the world. It has embarrassed bigger cars numerous times and amazed those who have seen it in action, and impressed all who have driven it.

Feel free to pm me for more details.
 
Agree that the SG Foresters are the best in many ways. The 2006-2008 series II in particular. However, a spectacularly modified series I like Rally's will be even better. Unmodified series I have far more torque than your SF, but an unmodified series ii is far better again. It will reach about 80% of maximum torque around 1200 rpm, and is still over 90% at 6300 rpm.

With an unmodified series I, those figures are about 2200 rpm and 5000 rpm respectively.
 
To answer you question about auto trans and sand - I have some experience driving my 2.5 auto SH Forester on soft sand and have had no problem at all. I never tow anything as I'm just a day tripper. Bribie Island is a breeze. I got through soft sections easily where Prados and a Navara got stuck.

I have also taken it to Swan Gully 4X4 Park and completed some green and orange sections where those following me in a DMax couldn't believe their eyes. Rocky/loose gravel sections were no problem. I have a video (on Offroad Subarus Australia Facebook) where the DMax driver comments - "I'm in low range 4 wheel drive and that Forester just keeps on pulling ahead"

If you like Subarus go for a 2.5 auto. I acknowledge Rally's SG is a wicked car but if you want a later model, the VDC in the SH with a conventional auto is my choice.
 
The best example I found to compare torque is a section of Elizabeth drive between Mamre Rd and the M7 in Sydney. With the NA SG 2.5 I had to go back to 4th to maintain 80kmh at or close to full throttle. Same car with the turbo engine, I could stay in 5th and easily accelerate up the same hill towing a 750kg trailer without going to full throttle. Even my significantly more powerful, lighter 2 litre WRX couldn’t do that in top gear. Maybe the top 2 gears.
 
In an off-road application, torque is required from as low revs as possible and in some situations a turbo doesn't cut it. A naturally aspirated 2.5 delivers torque a lot lower down than a turbo. A supercharger is the in-between option.

Put an auto trans with a 2.5 NA and you have the ability to crawl over rocks and rough spots at low speed without the worry of frying the clutch. A Subaru auto has a stall speed of over 2000 rpm which is well into the meat of a very flat torque curve.

There is no doubt that on-road performance is better by far in a turbo as Rally has shown but off-road, low rev torque can be much more important.
 
s_t said:
I really like the concept that Jeep have done with the Compass Trailhawk, where they stuck an extra low first gear into a 9 speed automatic, which gives it similar low ratio to a traditional dual range 4x4, but in a small compact light and fuel efficient vehicle. New model though, so none around cheap for second hand.
Click to expand...


They should be cheap soon enough. Whether you really want any Jeep Trailhawk, that's the question.
 
Please refrain from commenting on the torque characteristics of at least my particular car until you have driven it. Having converted the car from NA to turbo, the turbo out performs the NA offroad everywhere. If required, I can have the engine on boost before I have even let the clutch out. To date, this hasn't been necessary because it comes on boost so early, helped by the short gearing. In addition, the car no longer has the off idle hesitation endemic to the NA engine which regularly resulted in the engine stalling in off road conditions.
 
My comments were not about your car in particular but about turbos in general as you will see if you read it again. I acknowledged the off-road capability of your car but if someone wants something newer for their $14G and off-roading is important, in my humble opinion, an NA auto is a better choice than a turbo manual. A turbo will cost more than an NA so you can get a later model for the same money.
 
Well, I will let him decide if an auto sh is better off road than my manual turbo forester. No lack of low rpm torque crawling up that steep incline at low speed.

[ame="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r2s5J0jwGiQ"]Subaru Rear Diff Locker vs Subaru VDC - YouTube[/ame]
 
Having a turbo has definitely saved me on multiple occasions....

The Forester GT has quite a small turbo for mid-range torque. Couple this with exhaust mods and the torque characteristics can be similar to a well-sorted turbo diesel with strong performance almost off idle with plenty of boost available at 1500rpm. Most of my runs up big red I was holding between 2500 and 3500 RPM. If you listen to NAs going up Big Red they are almost at redline.

Mine just feels like it has a 4.0 litre engine.

But jeez that footage of that SH always disappoints me.....I often wonder if the S-Edition would fare better up that track due to it having VTD?

I "was" leaning toward an SH as my next car but until I see one get up that hill I'm not doing it. If the S-Edition can do it I will buy one. Now we just have to have another testing day out there...
 
The truth of the matter is that the SH did get up the hill. It just required a few attempts. It is also a fact that this is but one example where Rally's extensively and expensively modified SG managed this particular situation better than what appears to be a stock SH. All the video proves is that on that day, with those drivers, one car made it up the hill in one attempt while the other car took several. One swallow does not make a summer. There is insufficient data to reach a definitive conclusion about general off-road performance or driveability.

The fact remains that an SG is an old car and is less safe for the occupants when driven in traffic on the highway at normal operating speeds. Is the difference in off-road capability, which I consider of small significance given the small number of times I would be likely to need that capability, worth putting my family and me at greater risk of injury in daily driving? The answer has to be no.

I would get just as much enjoyment watching Rally negotiate small bits of the track that I can by-pass as I would from trying to compete with him.
 
Just for the sake of comparison, have a look at the small video posted by Jason Moore in the column of the right in this link. This shows a Naturally aspirated auto (4 speed) SH on steep soft sand. The main video shows an S edition turbo auto (5speed). I don't know the technical details but I suspect there is a difference in the way VDC works on turbo SH models compared with NA.
https://www.facebook.com/montyscott/videos/10156707706591774/

You may need to join the Facebook group - Off-road subarus Australia to be able to access it.
 
I would really like to see the video as I find this topic really interesting but I don't have a Facebook account.

If there is a copy of it on YouTube could someone please post a link?
 
Yes, that would be good if someone could do that.
 
Interesting video. There is no doubt that Rally's Forester made it up there easily but I think that my SJ Forester NA with CVT would have got up there without too much problem. It doesn't look harder than some of the tracks I did in the Victorian High Country. It is hard to tell in the video but it looks like a good track either way. Is this part of Rally's special testing track?

To answer the question about the CVT and 2.5L Forester in sand I think you would be surprised how well they go in the sand. Bribie Island was a walk in the park and a week on Fraser Island including the most difficult tracks we could find did not lead to any problems either. It also got me across the Simpson Desert and up Big Red without getting stuck once. My Forester has has a 2 inch lift and larger tyres.

I lean toward the later vehicles simply because of modern comforts and safety improvements and because I just have the one vehicle that does it all for me and mainly gets used in a work setting. It's always had enough power for me and so far I haven't got stuck.
 
Yep - good point!! It'd be great to see if an SJ with and without X-Mode made it.

Might have to have another testing day out there, this has raised so much interest.

But to keep things on topic....you can get an SG XT for $5k and for another grand you could have it lifted 2 inches, add $350 for a sump guard and $800 for some tyres and you will be a very happy man with an extremely capable all rounder.
 
Interesting car Rally. I haven't read that info/build thread yet, but you've certainly put a lot of time and effort into it! I've always found the viscous centre coupling to be very good, but haven't heard of both front and rear lockers in a Forester before! Wrx motor should have some go, as long as the clutch can handle it at lower speeds. I've already bought a skoda for on-road travel, so have time to consider options re offroad travel. You've certainly given me something to think about. :biggrin:
 
The front diff is STI lsd. It’s the centre and rear diffs that lock. The viscous centre diff becomes the weak link when you run the rear locker and a front lsd. So you lock the dccd. Some WRXs with the 2.5 litre engine come with a push clutch. The clutch is up to the job, although I have an extra HD pressure plate for it if needed
 
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