Meryla State Forest

Rally said:
Anything can be a problem, an auto is no exception and you need to see the video to see why it’s a problem.
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I've watched the video several times. Maybe the sound doesn't come through so well for me (maybe my hearing) but I didn't notice the same things you did. The thing is, you were there and heard it for real so the video is only reinforcing what you heard initially. I believe what you say but it isn't as obvious to me. :)
 
Beachworm said:
VDC works in a cycle. The computer detects wheelspin, applies the brake to that wheel and torque is redirected to the wheels the are not spinning. Provided the driver keeps constant or increasing pressure on the throttle, the computer will maintain control of traction. If, however, the driver eases off on the throttle, even slightly, the VDC goes back to start the cycle over again

I agree that the VDC takes too long to decide what to do, allowing wheelspin to occur in the first place. Porsche, for example, on the Macan, (which my son owns) has a very similar system but the delay is imperceptible. I am glad, however, that my SH Forester cost me less than half of a Macan! :)

...


This would cost so much time and money I really should just buy a Toyota and be done with it. :rotfl:
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Can hardly be said better.

And, yes, that's what I did. Bought a Toyota with terrific offroad traction control AND a rear locker. The other reason was the cargo area. So superior to the OB's, it is not even funny.

Of course, for all its offroad and cargo prowess, the 4Runner Offroad is a joke on the road compared to an H6 or turbo Subaru. I am speaking of performance; the comfort is at par with the most comfy Subarus and noise deadening is on a whole different level.
 
Better suspension would definitely help in that situation, but the SH's suspension geometry limits travel, so custom coilovers will never give an SH the travel that is possible in an SF or SG. I do think softer springs would have aided up until the point where wheels are in the air, but after that the car really needs a better drive system.


100% agree with MAS's comments on Subaru's traction system. I think some of the better electronic traction systems found in the very expensive 4wds rate inbetween a single locked 4wd and a twin locked 4wd. But not all 4wds have good traction systems. They had an Isuzu on the Australian TV series All 4 Adventure, which they talked up because they were sponsored but the 200 Series Land Cruiser made it look silly. The 2 cars have very different price though.


Rally's videos do show that a rear locker and an adequate low range in a light car are a weapon offroad. I've been lucky enough to see first hand what Dedman's Forester could do offroad with a rear locker. I jokingly asked if he'd have a go at one of the hardest hill in Mundaring Powerlines, and then he made it 90% up to my amazement. Yes some people can leave the tarmac for cheaper, and others can get a bigger car for the money. Everybody wants different things out of a car. But the SG is the perfect sized car for me and great fun to drive, so I know what I would rather have
 
It's my SH we're commenting on, and I appreciate each and every one of the comments thus far, speaking of how the traction control works, gearbox settings and driver input... even those relating to other traditional 4WD's. I've bought this auto XT after having spent over 20 years 4WDing, the last 10 years have been with a heavily modified GQ Patrol with a front locker and tight rear LSD (for those overseas, the rear LSD in the Patrol is as good as it gets and you don't need a rear locker).

For the videos Rally took on that hill climb:
1) I put the auto in 1st, making it 50:50 front rear split.
2) VSC button pressed, turning it off, which effectively just eliminates the engine power being cut during wheel spin.
3) I kept my foot constant even when the wheels lifted to ensure the traction control had time to do something about it. I've tested this nearby home and it worked at a slow speed perfectly fine, hearing and feeling the braking effect kicking in.
4) The brand new (less than 24 hours on the car) were at 20 to 22psi. They probably could have been dropped them lower, but the traction control system was more under the microscope here.
5) The brand new coilovers (again, less than 24 hours after installation) in the rear weren't correctly setup at the right height and clearance suffered. Hence I took it very slow. That said, the coilovers substantially removed the rear squatting and bouncing effect that the standard shocks allow, and this helped me feel more able to increase momentum on the later attempt.
6) The rear swaybar is a Whiteline 22mm unit with the frame stiffening arms off it. Hence, rear wheel travel was severely limited. Great for on-road handling but terrible here.

There were a few times that once traction control finally kicked in the driving wheel (left) on the front actually pushed the front to the right - away from the safe line so I had to back off and try again.

I was certainly disappointed with the slow response of traction control and the lack of wheel travel and dustiness of the track made matters worse. There's some work to do: adjust the coilovers to the correct height to maximise ground clearance and droop, replace the rear swaybar or at least remove the links for offroad. I actually wanted to try the climb again the following day without pressing the VSC button and see how it would go but we chose to do other things instead.

Certainly, I prefer a mechanically locking diff or a great LSD over traction control any day. Great wheel travel addresses car balance and traction, too. However, this was meant to be a test of the traction available before I do anything else with this 'new' car on a tight budget. I'm not going to use this car as rock crawler, but I consider this moderate offroad and it's traction control failed the test to me. If anyone's still awake after reading all the above, does anyone know of a way to make the traction control react quicker or is a 2nd hand diff swap the only way to improved traction?
 
Thanks for the detailed post! Ok, I found the video above and watched it.

Weird. I have experienced this on significant incline l only. Yes, videos flatten things out but it looked like you had trouble in an almost flat spot in the middle of the climb. That said:

The worst I ever saw my Outback do was on the picture below. The Ko2s were at 28, which was one part of the story. I needed four tries and more momentum than is healthy to get over. Subaru AWD is really out of its league when you have loose material over rock. It copes with either/or propositions, within reason, but once you face something loose over rock, the Subaru goes nuts. It does not matter if it is gravel or dirt or sand over rock.
 

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The other issue is the KO2s. Being LT, they really need to be aired down. I wonder how you would have performed at 15. After what happened on the pic above, I never drove a moderate trail at higher than 21 again.

Also, traction is harder to get when the front wheels are turned sideways.
 
Excellent analysis Alex. I was hoping you would post here and pleased you did. The input from others here hopefully will assist you
 
...and now I watched the successful climb as well.

Yup, it is inclined enough and very loose over rock. Too much for a Subaru. I am not speaking of the half a dozen heavily modified ones on this forum. I really like what Rally and NachaLuva and Kevin and JS1 have done, but they are not representative.


I would personally either accept the limitations--and the on road prowess!--or go back to the Patrol. But if you are inclined to make infinite tweaks...
 
Thanks for posting Subalex. I was hoping to hear from you. My transmission is the same as yours but my SH Forester is NA. I have been disappointed with the reaction time of the VDC but I haven't been in an off-road situation where it gave up entirely. It's hard to judge how steep the incline was from the video so maybe I've just not been up anything steep enough yet.


I agree with the comments that the SH system doesn't cope well with loose gravel mixed with hard surface on a steep incline. I also wonder whether, under such circumstances, leaving traction control on with the VDC might actually help. I found this video of a Prado testing it both ways but it looks as though there is no VDC.


https://www.caradvice.com.au/414075/should-i-leave-traction-control-on-when-driving-off-road/
 
Again, let's focus on the issue at hand.

On a typical 4x4, you either have no center differential or one that is mechanically locked 50/50. Then a traction control system designed for offroad conditions needs to worry about the tires on the two axles.

But on a pre-Xmode Subaru, you have a road optimized traction control system (that in early years had no TC off button) that has to cope with a center differential that is never actually locked as the clutches cannot give you a stable lock. X-mode brakes spinning wheels much faster than just VDC but you still have the never-really-locked center to worry about.
 
So now we need an SJ to try the same track. Alex aside, getting anyone to bring their car along is about as head as it was to get Alex’s car up that track! Planning another trip for the October long weekend.
 
Rally said:
Thanks Ben, will give it a go
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No worries. It bugs me that phone manufacturers don't take this into consideration. It's far more comfortable to hold a phone vertically, yet they make the camera lens vertical. it's the major flaw in phones as far as I can tell.

Sorry for being off topic.
 
My thread, and I don’t think it’s off topic. A worthwhile contribution, so thanks again
 
MiddleAgeSubie said:
Thanks for the detailed post! Ok, I found the video above and watched it.
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Ditto! thanks for the detail!

but once you face something loose over rock, the Subaru goes nuts. It does not matter if it is gravel or dirt or sand over rock.
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That's exactly what I was thinking! I've been over some reasonably tough terrain since I modified my Foz, but none of it was loose and it performed far beyond my expectations. which was really handy as the ridge I was on was barely wider than the vehicle, quite steep and nowhere to turn around. No way I wanted to reverse down (and up) it. Probably one of the more stupid things I've done in my life and I've done my fair share of stupid things.
 
Rally said:
So now we need an SJ to try the same track. Alex aside, getting anyone to bring their car along is about as head as it was to get Alex’s car up that track! Planning another trip for the October long weekend.
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Oh no, basically that SJ was meant to be me. But honestly i probably would have chickened out on some of those tracks.. Not afraid to say it.

This thread has been a really interesting read. I really want to get one of the odb2 readers that can monitor the awd split. But i think they are over $100.

Sounds like you guys had a great trip. Sorry i missed it.
 
With underbody protection, that track would be fine.
 
I saw a perfect candidate on the way to work this morning. Turning right onto Richmond Rd at the end of South Street (Western Sydney) at about 7:45am. A black SJ, lifted, on muddies, roof rack, front rally bar... Whoever this is needs to be found and reeled into coming down there with us. :-)
 
Finally have the video from this trip of me in the mud hole. I didn't realise that there was actually a star picket which was hidden but preventing me from moving forward. You can hear the car hitting it. I thought it was a rock, and didn't want to risk hitting it and setting the airbags off. https://youtu.be/pjlYpW2muF4
 
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