Please Say It Ain't So...

Jadesa227

Forum Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2014
Messages
5
Location
Virginia
Car Year
2015
Car Model
Forester
Transmission
CVT
Hi All,

After some research, I was anticipating getting a 2015 Forester Limited with CVT. After some additional reading, I’m not so sure anymore based on what I’ve read. I’m hoping to get your opinions and experiences with this. It seems that there are numerous documented consumer complaints going back several model years and also affecting other models such as the Outback, Legacy, Crosstrek, etc.with:

1.Abnormal oil consumption and failure for the low oil light to consistently turn on resulting in catastrophic engine failures. Is it true that Subaru is advising in the Owner’s Manual that it’s “normal’ for the oil to need to be replenished in between the recommended 6,000 mile oil changes and that only synthetic oil be used? Some owners report having to top the oil in as few as 2,000 miles after a change. It has been speculated that this oil consumption situation is the underlying rationale for Subaru dropping the previously recommended oil change interval from 7,500 miles down to 6,000. Any truth to this?

2.Premature Head Gasket and engine failures

3.Poor paint quality with excessive paint chipping and bubbling with just normal drive usage

4.Subaru dealerships and Subaru America’s reluctance to “make good” on these documented problems

And then there’s the unknown robustness and longevity of the unproven CVT itself with Subaru offering only a 60,000 mile Power Train Warranty as opposed to other manufacturer’s 100,000 mile limit.

I would greatly appreciate it if any of you experienced owners can shed some light or offer some balance to any of this? I very much would like to get a Forester but quite frankly I’m now fearful of paying $30,000 for a potential lemon.
 
I understand that Subaru are using a "thinner" oil for better economy and the result of using it means it needs topping up.

Head gasket issues were generally with older models (like mine).
 
Thanks Kevin. Looks like starting with 2015 Forester, Subaru requires full synthetic oil SAE OW-20 to be used with the change interval of every 6,000 miles.
 
Gidday J

Even in Virginia where you live in the States, but nowhere at all in Oz, is there any way I would ever contemplate using a 0W-20 oil ...

I use Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 fully synthetic in both our Foresters (2006 and 2009, both N/A EJ-253 engines), even though 0W-20 is recommended in the Owner's Manual!

FS oil has been recommended for a long time now in the EJ engines. It is just better oil.

My 2006 N/A 2.5L 5MT/DR had this oil in it for about 10,000 kms and 24 months. It used no measurable amount of oil at all in that time. When it was changed, the oil still looked good, felt good and smelled good. Mineral oil would have been black, emulsified and frothy after 24 months!

IIRC, Pennzoil in the States is the trading name of the Shell Oil Company.
 
Gidday John

On comparing what the OM on that site recommends for my 2006 Forester with what the US and Oz OMs say, it is different again ...

No bloody wonder that you are confused!

Basically, it comes down to the fact that 0W-20 and 5W-30 FS have the same minimum operating (ambient ... ) temperature, and a big difference in the maximum. 5W-30 FS runs out at 40°C. 5W-40 FS doesn't ....

That's why I use 5W-40 FS. Even around the coastal parts of Oz ambient temperatures often exceed 40°C. Inland, this is a commonplace.

If I were buying a 2015 Forester, I would use 5W-40 FS after the running in period, i.e. after the first 3,000 miles, without any hesitation at all.
 
Ratbag,

you wrote: "and a big difference in the maximum. 5W-30 FS runs out at 40°C. 5W-40 FS doesn't ...."

did you mean to say "OW-20 FS runs out at 40C. 5W-40 FS doesn't..." ?
 
^ In theory, 0W-20 FS is OK until 40°C (according to Subaru).

However, according to Subaru's own manuals, 5W-30 FS comes to a dead halt at 40°C. I think that this speaks for itself. If 5W-30 runs out of lubricating ability at 40C, then 0W-20 FS must run out of puff at a lower temperature than this ...

5W-40 FS is good for well over 40°C.

Note that Subaru also recommend using a 10W-40 or even 20W-50 in extreme conditions of heat, towing, etc ... This also speaks for itself.

Looking at the above, I would reckon that in reality this means that 0W-20 FS is OK for around town at low speeds as long as the temperature doesn't go over about 35°C ... Just IMHO, of course ...
 
I had an 2012 Subaru XV. It used the 0W-30 oil and I had the car for 67,000kms before I got rid of it. It never used any detectable oil in that time. Car was mostly used for country runs. I can confirm that the paint chips very easily. I had the 6 speed manual so cannot comment on the cvt.
 
Ratbag said:
Gidday John

On comparing what the OM on that site recommends for my 2006 Forester with what the US and Oz OMs say, it is different again ...

No bloody wonder that you are confused!

Basically, it comes down to the fact that 0W-20 and 5W-30 FS have the same minimum operating (ambient ... ) temperature, and a big difference in the maximum. 5W-30 FS runs out at 40°C. 5W-40 FS doesn't ....

That's why I use 5W-40 FS. Even around the coastal parts of Oz ambient temperatures often exceed 40°C. Inland, this is a commonplace.

If I were buying a 2015 Forester, I would use 5W-40 FS after the running in period, i.e. after the first 3,000 miles, without any hesitation at all.
Click to expand...

Hey RB

You do realise that ambient temp is still necessary for air cooled engines but is no longer a consideration in pressurized water cooled engines :).
 
^ ?? :poke: :confused:.

Ambient temperature determines how hot an engine will get with a given viscosity engine and a given cooling system, coolant, etc.

The ambient temperature determines how hot the cooling system will get.

This determines how well the block, cylinder heads, etc can transfer heat into the cooling system ...

etc, etc ... :iconwink: ... lots of other variables there.

But why do you think that the ambient temperature range is a major consideration in the choice of a particular oil viscosity range?
 
Ratbag said:
The ambient temperature determines how hot the cooling system will get.
Click to expand...


Doesn't the thermostat setting have something to do with this? Once at operating temp, my engine temp varies very little be it hot or cold weather.
 
Ratbag said:
^ ?? :poke: :confused:.

Ambient temperature determines how hot an engine will get with a given viscosity engine and a given cooling system, coolant, etc.

The ambient temperature determines how hot the cooling system will get.

This determines how well the block, cylinder heads, etc can transfer heat into the cooling system ...

etc, etc ... :iconwink: ... lots of other variables there.

But why do you think that the ambient temperature range is a major consideration in the choice of a particular oil viscosity range?
Click to expand...

Ambient temperatures does not determines how hot the engine will get. The efficiency of the cooling system design determines that and with Subaru's, they are very, very good. ;)

Engines are designed to run at around 90 to 100C generally , regardless of external temperatures, so is the oil and water.

The problem is that the viscosity of oil varies with its temperature and pressure. Oil will thicken when it is cool. It is also harder to pump to the other working components, pass through the filter and how quickly it drain back into the engine. Lower the viscosity (grade), easier it will happen. That's why cold starts is so critical in engine wear.

The viscosity of the oil will change (get thinner) as the engine warms up to normal operating temps.

Just to confuse everybody, the numbers and letters labelled on oil bottles represents the GRADE of oil. It is the grade that represents the OIL VISCOSITY RANGE at operating temperature.

It does not represent the viscosity of the oil inside the Bottle.

Cheers
 
Last edited:
Kevin said:
Doesn't the thermostat setting have something to do with this? Once at operating temp, my engine temp varies very little be it hot or cold weather.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, it is part of the pressurised water cooling circuit, Other critical parts are the heat exchanger (radiator), airflow (clutch fans / electric fans) water pump.

Only engine design that is ambient temperature affected is air cooled engines.
 
Kevin said:
Doesn't the thermostat setting have something to do with this? Once at operating temp, my engine temp varies very little be it hot or cold weather.
Click to expand...

Try it in extreme conditions, Kevin.

My Kimberley normally ran at 180-190°F and 30-40 psi oil pressure. On Black Friday (or whatever) in the Adelaide Hills, with an ambient temperature of 45°C+, at around 130 kmh, the cooling system was running at about 230°F with oil pressure at 7 psi ...I was extremely grateful for the knowledge that it had a very high capacity/high flow oil pump! IIRC, it was running 20W-50 Castrol mineral oil.

The engine was not damaged.

I can't recall the last time I saw an OEM car with an oil pressure gauge ...

The Kimberley had an electric, front mounted fan and radiator.

Mine also had a modified thermostat, with 6 1/4" holes drilled around its circumference to allow a bit more flow. Not as much as one would perhaps imagine, as the flow through these was mostly non-laminar due to their small diameter, just enough to overcome the design flaw that made it run too warm normally.
 
I have, both + and -. I can't tell you what my oil pressure was because I don't have a gauge. Yes, Kimberleys were known for overheating.
 
^ Most British cars did. Inadequate radiator capacity for Ozzie conditions. The Kimberley wasn't too bad until the ambient temp got up over the high thirties.

In order for any of us to make pronouncements about oils and engine temperatures, we need to have access to at least three things, IMO:

1) Oil pressure;

2) Block temperature (should be the same as oil temperature ... ); and

3) Coolant temperature, measured almost anywhere except at the top of the radiator!

The viscosity index for the upper range of an oil is measured when the oil is at 100°C. If your engine temperature exceeds this figure (an cooling system with a 15psi pressure cap can easily exceed this without boiling ... ), all bets are off as regards the lubricating properties of the specific oil. It is only as advertised on the container if the engine block temperature is 100°C or less.

The boiling point of water at ~29 psi (atmospheric pressure of 14.69 psi plus 15 psi blow-off point for a modern radiator cap) is approximately 120°C. See here:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html

At this temperature, the oil will be well above the reference point for the measurement of lubricating properties of 100°C.

The point that I am trying to make is that one needs to keep in mind that water temperature will be governed (to some degree, at least) by the extremes of ambient temperature (possibly either frozen, or in excess of the critical 100°C), and this will have an impact on the lubricating properties of the oil in use, particularly if it is not blended to handle the temperatures to which it is being subjected.

This has already been discussed here:

https://www.offroadsubarus.com/showpost.php?p=77873&postcount=11

and generally in that thread.
 
2015 Subaru Forester owner here with a 2.5 l limited. 200,000 miles on the engine. I had to replace a transmission at 150,000 mi and while the Subaru dealerships don't acknowledge the problem transmission shops and third party Subaru repair shops acknowledge that The transmissions typically start to go out around 150k. I bought an aftermarket that failed after 50,000 the current one seems to be running fine. Subaru is about a reputation for a long time for burning oil, it has something to do with the boxer engine. I've been told by some engineers that a properly running engine should burn a little bit of oil to save the engine but I don't know if that's true. The paint has not been a problem but the aluminum body is a real pain in the donkey and dense if you look at it cross-eyed. I don't know about the current models but this model has a very low towing capacity. That was disappointing to find out when I came across a great deal on a trailer. It appears they screwed with the transmission to give it better fuel economy but the result was it has very low towing capacity. If I had to do it again I don't think I would have bought this Forester, I probably would have gone for the outback.
 
Doug, I've just driven from Melbourne to Brisbane at high speeds (i.e. around 110 kmh) in relatively high ambient temperatures (in the mid to high 30s, Centigrade). Our 2006 SG has used no oil and no water. Not a drop. Well over 3,000 Kms in total, so far. It has a 5 speed, dual range gearbox. Our 2009 SH has the Jatco 4 speed auto, with the Sportshift TCU system.

I'm still using Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 fully synthetic oil in both.

Currently, the last oil change was about 3-4 years ago, but only about 7,000 kms ago. The oil still feels, smells and looks fine. The temperature gauge has not budged from about 3-4 mm above the minimum operating range mark.

BTW, a warm :welcome: to the forum.

Sorry to hear about your poor experience with your Subaru.
 
G'day & Welcome @ATLDoug
Unfortunately the 2015 is a whole new kettle of fish, different engine, CVT etc. ( But lucky it does not have the thermo control valve like the 2019!) My daughter has a 2015 and so far so good; fingers crossed.
 
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