Bathurst 1000

I was annoyed that it was not either, because it would have been the best car to have at the time! But the idea of Group A was it was an international category. The M3 was not available either, nor was the Volvo turbo, but that did not seem to worry anyone. In fact, the Ford Sierra 2.3 litre was not available either, but no one was concerned that it was competing. But when the Cossie started winning, a huge outcry. The GTR was available locally, but people found a reason to ban it too. me thinks that there was a feeling Holdens had to win everything, and people mistakenly believed they were the best cars in the world. Once it had to compete with cars from the rest of the world, I think a lot of people were shattered and wanted them all banned. Only trouble was, when they brought out the V8 category it was still been beaten soundly. So, they had a huge dummy spit, changed the rules again and again until they started winning. I'm glad those days are gone. I reckon by far the best victory by any Commodore at Bathurst was the one by Alan Grice in 1986. Won on merit, against the rest of the world and in emphatic style without changing the rules to make it happen. It was also one of my favourite Bathursts for that reason. I thought Johnson's win in 1989 was also great for the same reason. That car was developed locally, then went out and was at the time the fastest touring car in the world. He totally humiliated the Europeans at their own game, even though they had a big head start. Winning races where the rules are altered so that you can win means little. Winning on the international scene with no assistance from the rules- now that is really something. So well done the Grice and Johnson teams
 
Umm?? The GRM Monaro was based on the HRT 427 Monaro road car not the 4 door GTS.

I agree there was some deals done with the Bathurst 24 hour race as Holden "promised" to manufacture 120 road going cars to be allowed to compete they raced and won and only ever made 4 actual HRT 427 Monaros. 1 is in the holden museum 1 went to germany as a gift to one of the designers, leaving only two out in public one of which sold at auction a few years ago in qld for $960k odd which at the time made it the most valuable aussie made car.

As the name suggests though these cars were 427CI or 7Litre factory with double wishbone front ends. etc so forth. Holden was going to sell them for $200+k but in the end decided just todrop it all together after only making the first 4 besides the two race ones of course.


Rally said:
In the GTP days, the Holden's (The GTS) were given freedoms but I think it would be fair to say that when people talk about Bathurst, it is generally assumed to mean the 1000km race and the old 500 mile race. The GTS never won a championship. As for that farce that was the so called "Monaro" that won the 24 hour race, that was an utter disgrace. Only allowed into the event to get more spectators- Holden ones- it had about as much in common with a real Monaro as my lawn mower. I suspect it was born because the GTS had proven overall to be a failure. How else can you explain why it was the ONLY car in the field allowed to have a far bigger engine than the car on which it was loosely based- 7 litre vs 5.7, front end changed to double wishbone as opposed to the road cars strut, and so on.

I lost interest in V8 Supercars in the mid 90's. When the 5 litre come V8 Supercar formula was first introduced, we were told that there would be no changes to the Holden or Ford packages for a year. A few races into the 1993 season, and Glenn Seton winning many of the races, at the EC round the Holdens were allowed to run their 1994 aero package while the Fords still had to run the 93 package. holden won everything after that. So complete and unfair was the domination, Perkins won from a lap down. The Fords received their 94 aero package in 94, but with the Holdens having 6 months or more development, it was not till mid years the Fords got their act together. Come 1995, bothh Ford with the EF and Holden with the VR had new aero packages. But the Fords were doing better and after one "nobbling" did not work, the Fords had to remove 200mm from their front undertrays that the Holdens kept. Once again, the Holdens won just about everything after that, and continued on into 1996 with the same advantage. Despite having greater domination with these advantages than the Fords had without them, the Holdens were not effectively nobbled until "Blueprint"came in. I lost interest after that. Yes, the favourtism shown to Holden in those days has gone, but I still don't have the passion for the sport I once did.
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I love the Sierra Cosworth & Godzilla...they're both cult cars & for good reason! :lildevil:

I cant help think if Bathurst went back to its unadulterated form Subaru WRX STi's & Mitsi Evo's would have agreat chance of winning outright :biggrin:

Rally said:
Winning races where the rules are altered so that you can win means little. Winning on the international scene with no assistance from the rules- now that is really something
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Which highlights how incredible the Australia II America's Cup win was. They tried changing the rules mid competition, tried sabotaging us with rope tied between balloons to catch on the keel, sabotage with divers in the dock...you name it they tried it yet we still won! Awesome!!! :lildevil::monkeydance:
 
By rules being change I assume yous are referring to the sierras and the 1987 cheatings win/loss? I think it's important to remember that the rules and regulations were largely created by FISA a global organisation? If the fords were running illegal body modifications to allow more steering movement or something I think it was from memory?? Also not sure if it was the same year but weren't the sierras also caught using higher octane fuel might not have been at Bathurst though??

Also Australia pulled out of the touring cars because the regulations being brought in where even more biased to the smaller capacity cars, I'm sure holden was having a whinge but really it made sense. They new Holden couldn't be competitive under the new regulations FISA were bringing in in 1993. If the races weren't Holden vs ford the large majority of the Australian public were going to stop watching. Which means sponsors pull out which means no money which pretty soon would mean no Bathurst races at all. unfortunately with all professional sports they are about business first sport second.
 
The Fords were quite rightly disqualified for cheating. There was an issue with the DJR Fords, which broke the rules by using the remains of the fuel they had used at a previous meeting. The rules stipulated that they must use the control fuel. The fuel they were using apparently was not as good as the control fuel, but it broke the rules. Australia did eventually pull out, and I agree with your last comments. But what Group A showed is what we are now seeing in the market place- big cars are not popular. because they cannot compete. Let's face it- a Nissan GTR R32 was far better than the Commodore as a road car, but so many people had their head in the sand and did not wish to see it. Holden had the opportunity of building a car to beat the Sierra, and did not. Nissan had the same opportunity, and did so. And Holden had the resources of the vast General Motors behind it, but GM had nothing either. Peter Brock said of his energy polariser that it made a **** car good, or words very close to that. Energy Polarisers were only fitted to Commodores....
 
Those energy polarisers are worth over $5k on there own now.

You say a r32 gtr is a better road car than commodore? ever taken the missus and the kids shopping in one on a Saturday? Or gone away to the gold coast with the family in one? Plus I'm not sure what the rrp was of each car back in the day.
 
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Seeing that we were in the context of performance, the GTR offers far superior performance. However, as a taxi there is no doubt the Commodore would have some advantages over the GTR. But you cannot have it both ways. People bought Brock Commodores and HSV's for performance. Remember how HDT compared the VK HDT COmmodore to a 911? If they are pitching the car as a performance car, then the compromises of it being a 4 door sedan will come to light when compared against a dedicated sports car. Sports sedans have their place- I have one myself- but I'm not kidding myself that it will out do what a good sports car will do best. I have a Forrie for travelling long distances and for getting the shopping. As for price, how far do yo take it? Yes, the GTR cost more, but then you got a whole lot more. I could argue that a Camry station wagon can take more load and cost less than an HSV GTS, but that is not a very convincing argument either. The GTR was a better road car than the Commodore in the context of what they were designed to do. And the GTR was a better race car, despite adding all the extra weight, cutting revs and knocking off boost that happened here in Australia to give the Heavy Old Local Design Engineering Nightmare (H-O-L-D-E-N) half a chance.

The GTR was and is a ripper car. I remember watching it at Amaroo launch in the wet from the third or fourth row. Skaife overtook the Fords and Holdens on the wet grass- it was amazing to watch.
 
Your argument makes no sense, Holden do not design the commodore to win races, It's a family saloon and is designed as such. The GTR was built from the ground up as a sports/race car. Yes commodores were turned into race cars/ sports car via HDT but this was Holden dealer team, in those days GM banned holden from being involved in racing programs which is why all the big dealers with coin got together with Brock and build some cars that they could then homologate into a race car for competing. Holden was not involved and there for never built a purpose built race car in those days to take on the sierras or GTR.

Holden can make race cars that can hold there own with the best they proved this with the GRM HRT 427. GM eventually lifted the ban on holden being involved in motor sport in the late 80's but Holden was in bad financial shape then due to how much money they lost over the Nissan RB30 engine deal. So there was no way they could swing a dedicated race car program at that point. So they started there own performance brand HSV to tweak the commodores similar to what Brock was doing but in a way that Holden had control. But they were still as you say taxi's and will always be, I myself have a VZ HSV Senator 2006 model.

I'll say this at least I can lower/raise my 2006 commodore without it throwing the rear end wheel geometry out like it does on my 2012 model Subaru forester:P.
 
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The GTR was a development of the 2 door Skyline. Skylines were sold In Australia (but only the GTR variant of the R32 and earlier models) and they were a Japanese family sedan- the GTR had 2 less doors, 2 extra driving wheels and more grunt. The GM ban on racing was in the 70's, not the 90's. As for the 427, that car never went into production. It was only successful as a race car because the rules were changed to allow it specifically to be allowed, and allowed to have mods no one esle could do to their cars. No other car was afforded that. You could call it the We Want Holden To Win and We Will Keep Changing The Regulations Till It Does Win Rule. I cannot help but think that the car was allowed on the proviso it went into production, but Holden went back on their word. They had the publicity they needed without committing to production like everyone else had to. Only a theory, I am not saying that is what happened, but I cannot help but wonder.
 
LOL....

Where did I mention the 1990's? Holden were officially allowed to re join racing in 1987 and they did re join the following year after forming HRT(Holden racing team). For reasons which I have already mentioned over and over you can surmise why they never built a better racing platform than commodore.

Re the hrt Monaro which you claimed you knew nothing about now you use my argument as your own and it's now a good argument? Your in politics I'm guessing :P.

Please o back and actually re read my last two pages of posts.


Also you say it was Holden that got the skylines banned? Holden must have some sway on the international scene then as in 1993 the british, European and even japanese touring car divisions even banned them.
 
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Where did I say I knew nothing about them? Maybe I am more tired from the weekend than I thought! If I did say that, then I got that wrong and I'm sorry about that. I know something about them, as it was such a furore at the time. I knew the Protecninca team and drivers Wayne Boatwright, Chris Alajajian, Justin Hemmes and Grant Park, so I had some insight of the HSV GTS, and a general interst in the 427. I was with the team for the 24 hour race.

The GTR was not specifically banned overseas. It was just that Group A itself was replaced with the 2 litre class known as Super Tourers. So all the cars such as the Sierra, Commodore, BMW and so on were gone. The turbos were banned in Australia and I believe that Holden was lobbying very hard for that. Mike Raymond even got in on the act and during the race telecast he even had a phone poll set up to push the cause.
 
The HSV GTS was in no way related to the HRT Monaro 427. https://www.caradvice.com.au/11677/australias-most-expensive-car-the-hrt-427/

4 were built 1 kept by Holden 1 went to germany apparently and 2 are owned by private buyers in Australia.

I believe it still holds the record of the most expensive australia car with that auction of $920000.

As I said on the previous pages Holden promised to build the mininum number required to complete but decided it was viable and dropped the project.

I think the W427 was meant to sort of make up for the failed HRT 427 but it just was no where near as good.
 
I found this article i can't find anything so far saying Holden wanted the turbo cars banned more just about dropping spectators and public losing interest.

In October 1991, Group A touring car racing in Australia was hanging on by a thread. The domination, of turbocharged cars like the Ford Sierra and Nissan GTR was killing the spectator value of the racing. Not only that, the recession of that year had taken a huge toll on some drivers as well as sponsors. Fields were tiny, so tiny there were 12 cars in one round. It wasn't helped when the rest of the world had turned its back on Group A. Great Britain had turned to two-litre touring car racing, later to be known as Super Touring. And Germany had its own 2.5 litre formula, which would grow way beyond its capabilities and soon die.
What could the officialdom of the sport do? Follow with those European options or turn its back on Group A and the other formulas and create its own. Luckily they took the latter, and in late 1991, the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport announced Group A turbo and 4WD cars would be banned from racing as of January 1, 1993 and replaced with a 5-litre V8 formula consisting of the Ford Falcon and the Holden Commodore.
For many fans, this was great joy. They were crying out 'The V8s are back!' And how right they were. As soon as the announcement was made, four teams immediately began building the new generation touring cars. And by June 1992, Dick Johnson Racing unveiled the first Ford Falcon Group A V8 Touring Car. However, the car's life lasted as long as the unveiling. Certain parts of the car were deemed not within the new rules and the car was immediately banned.
However, the other three teams, Glenn Seton Racing, Octagon Motorsport/BROCK and Holden Racing Team had built their new artillery within the rules and ready for the endurance races of 1992. And they did quite well too. So when January 1, 1993 came around, the season was ready for action. A new formula, new cars and plenty of excitement.
The fans go just that from round one onwards of the 1993 Australian Touring Car Championship. Records crowds appeared at nearly every round and TV audiences were higher than during the turbo and 4WD era. This most definitely was a shot in the arm for the sport in general.
 
Oh and whats the difference between regulating out the GTR like other catagories did and regulating out the GTR like Australia did?
 
I just wonder how many times this same or similar conversations has been had over the years lol.
 
I know of one of the 427's. It is red and was owned by (may still well still be owned) by a member of the HSV Club. It did not run the double wishbone front suspension or other special bits apart from the engine and related bits. As a motorsport official I had the opportunity to give this car a lookover when it was competing at club events. The owner said only one other existed. I assume this did not include the race cars. I agree the GTS is a different car to the 427- one of the differences being of course that the GTS was a production car.

I think it would be obvious that Holden wanted to get rid of the turbos. There was no way they would have been comfortable with it and it would suit their marketing more if there were no turbos. Equally, the lobbying would be best done in private. With the end of Group A world wide, obviously something had to be done. Many thought it was a mistake to kick out Nissan, BMW and others who were in the sport. But the cars of 1993 are far different cars to that of today. Back then, Holden's ran Holden engines, ran Panhard rods and front struts like the road cars. Fords and Holdens ran metal panels and the rears were not pop rivoted on as they are now. Interestingly, when Chev engines were allowed, they allowed those running Holdens to use slide throttles, while Ford and Chev engines could not use them.

I think Venom is right- people will talk about this stuff for ever. As I said before, I lost interest in this category years ago. Since then, I have been involved in rallying as a competitor and more recently doing motorkhanas. I have also been an official for some time, having done events such as Muscle Car Masters, World Time Attack, Top Gear and various state and national supersprint and race meetings as Assistant Clerk of Course. I have no desire to do V8 Supercars though. It just does not mean so much to me anymore.
 
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