NA vs XT manual offroad

thunder039 said:
if i had more low end power i doubt i would use mine very often. for example when i 4x4 in my brumby due to the low end torque i very rarely use the lowrange maybe once or twice
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But at least it is there if you need it. Theres been many times I've needed LR for crawling over rocks or up a steep incline. It doesnt matter how much low end torque you have if the higher gearing puts the revs at idle speed or less due to the very low engine speed (diesels incl). Either that or you burn out the clutch! :(
 
Nachaluva said:
But at least it is there if you need it. Theres been many times I've needed LR for crawling over rocks or up a steep incline. It doesnt matter how much low end torque you have if the higher gearing puts the revs at idle speed or less due to the very low engine speed (diesels incl). Either that or you burn out the clutch! :(
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I just want to be able to crawl up some slight muddy inclines, over rocks and just up gravel hills in 2-4th low and not have to be doing over 3000. If im not doing atleast that it just dies in the arse, you put your foot down and the revs keep going down until it stalls :(
 
Gidday Rally & Mr T

Rally said:
This has been discussed previously. The more linear power delivery and low range of the NA is in most instances better. There are times when the turbo engine comes on boost at the wrong moment. No doubt there may be times when the turbo is better- and it certainly is on road. Having said that, if you pedal your non turbo keenly it is known that they can give a turbo a really hard time on the open road
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mr turbo said:
I'll throw another scenario into this, if I may ?
Are we referring to the 2.0 ltr or the 2.5 ltr.

For the 2.0 I think the turbo would have the advantage over a N/A, even when you take into account the duel range.
Especially when it come to a long, steep hill climb :iconwink:

However for the slower driving stuff, I would have to side with the N/A :)

When it comes to the 2.5 ltr, I would have to give the advantage to the N/A & duel range most of the time.

Like Rally said, with the turbo, the boost can be a somewhat dis-advantage if it cuts in/out at the wrong time.
Trust me. I've had it happen to me a few times :bcool:

Too much power too early, & you'll start to spin your wheels :twisted:
Back it off too early & drop the rev count too much, you'll loose the boost & run out of puff & stop part way up :redface:

Just my 2 cents worth :)

Regards
Mr Turbo
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These are very interesting observations, specially coming from two people with much experience with both turbo and N/A donks.

The issues you both raise here had not occurred to me before, but make perfect sense. If there were a hard switch so that the turbo stayed on continuously with rev-dependent boost (i.e. not throttle-dependent boost), the problem would simply vanish, giving the turbo (and turbo diesel) a huge advantage over the N/A donk.

Without such a modification (I haven't the faintest idea how that could be done - it would effectively turn the turbo into an exhaust driven supercharger ... ), I can see that the relatively high and flat torque curve of the 2.5L N/A donk could have some serious advantages, in some situations.

I chose to go non-turbo with both of ours, but not for the reasons raised by you both here.
Interesting ... :poke:
 
taza said:
If you want to get a slide offroad you really need to be in 1st high range (in the foz), ~4000rpm then turn (maybe give the handbrake a little pull but keep the button pushed in so it drops back down), then plant your foot on the accellerator so it's at 5500rpm. You will get a good controlled slide then :iconwink: :cool:
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i can get a power slid on gravel up to 3rd gear but struggles! 2nd gear works best i find

taza said:
The Brumby has much better low end torque than our Foresters, but sucks up high that's why you don't need to use low range much. My L-Series is the same :iconwink:
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which is what i was saying that in most cases, not all the low range is to just to make up for the lack of low end power. i use low range all the time in my forester just due to that lack of low end torque to get up and go, were as on the same track i wouldn't use low range in the brumby
 
Nachaluva said:
But at least it is there if you need it. Theres been many times I've needed LR for crawling over rocks or up a steep incline. It doesnt matter how much low end torque you have if the higher gearing puts the revs at idle speed or less due to the very low engine speed (diesels incl). Either that or you burn out the clutch! :(
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agree totally i use low range in the forester all the time but its mainly due to the lack of low end power, and yes i agree even in a turbo model low range would be very useful for thoes occasions were crawling speed is needed but isnt 100% necessary for most people in most areas of driving
 
I guess you might be able to wire in a solenoid that keeps the waste gate open, but even then I think they will stay shut until they get about 9 pound of boost. Maybe some form of customised waste gate actuator is needed as well. That way you could keep the boost at a far more manageable level. Some ECU's and boost controllers run switchable maps. The boost controller in my WRX became unreliable- sometimes there was boost, at other times there was not. I now run a separate boost controller which has two settings. For off road use you could run it at say 9 pound, and back up for on road. In the WRX, I only use one setting. If you own a turbo and go off road, this may be a partial solution. Better still might be an ECU with 2 maps, so that you can cut boost and timing for off road use. Would be difficult to tune though. Probably quite expensive too
 
i can't compare the turbo response of the diesel as i've never driven the petrol turbo foz. but i can honestly never tell when or where the turbo comes in, i'd say it's around 1200rpm as theres not alot home below 1000rpm. yesterday we took the chance to test the foz on some muddy track with all the rain lately. i did alot of testing on the lowerend power in these conditions it seem it can handle to drive off up slops from about 950rpm if you let it go any lower it wont like it.

it will pull up fairly hard slops really well at about 1400rpm, and will build speed. one thing i noted though was going down these slops with all the mud i needed lower then the 1st gear i had the brakes kept bring on abs or going into a slide and 1st gear would run away a bit too much.

so thus far we've never felt the need for LR except for some better engine braking.
 
Gidday Biesel

Biesel said:
i can't compare the turbo response of the diesel as i've never driven the petrol turbo foz. but i can honestly never tell when or where the turbo comes in, i'd say it's around 1200rpm as theres not alot home below 1000rpm. yesterday we took the chance to test the foz on some muddy track with all the rain lately. i did alot of testing on the lowerend power in these conditions it seem it can handle to drive off up slops from about 950rpm if you let it go any lower it wont like it.

it will pull up fairly hard slops really well at about 1400rpm, and will build speed. one thing i noted though was going down these slops with all the mud i needed lower then the 1st gear i had the brakes kept bring on abs or going into a slide and 1st gear would run away a bit too much.

so thus far we've never felt the need for LR except for some better engine braking.
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Interesting observations mate.

You can stop the ABS from cutting in by using impulse braking, releasing the pedal just before the ABS has time to realise that a wheel is slipping. If the ABS does cut in, it will completely release the brakes, then slam them on hard. When it does this, you lose any semblance of directional stability you might have had ... UGLY!
 
Biesel said:
i can't compare the turbo response of the diesel as i've never driven the petrol turbo foz. but i can honestly never tell when or where the turbo comes in, i'd say it's around 1200rpm as theres not alot home below 1000rpm. yesterday we took the chance to test the foz on some muddy track with all the rain lately. i did alot of testing on the lowerend power in these conditions it seem it can handle to drive off up slops from about 950rpm if you let it go any lower it wont like it.

it will pull up fairly hard slops really well at about 1400rpm, and will build speed. one thing i noted though was going down these slops with all the mud i needed lower then the 1st gear i had the brakes kept bring on abs or going into a slide and 1st gear would run away a bit too much.

so thus far we've never felt the need for LR except for some better engine braking.
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Nice. I find my gearing adequate but due to the lack of torques, only 184 of them (when new I reckon about 150 now) I can't go slow enough to go up hills and the likes and still have power to give. I have to scream the petrol engine up at 4000rpm making low range useless as you aren't going slow enough to stop damage. Plus I I only have a little bit of power to give between there and redline.
Thus my nick name 'flat out' coming into play from the ausubaru boys. lol
I don't exactly havea choice not to go flat out. The EJ25 is much better though and with my low range I reckon it would really shove offroad. A H6 though would be even better as I could pull up at a slow speed doing ~2000rpm and have power to give if need be.

On the note of diesels though when I drive my old mans ute(Mazda bravo) you usually change gear at 1000-2000rpm for normal driving. I usually scream around in it though revving it upto about 4-4500rpm. It's got a good pull for a 2.5l diesel and once the turbo kicks in it throws you back in the seat abit. I find it much nicer to drive than my Forester as a daily driver..
 
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while talking about turbo lag i have driven a new nissan pathfinder lately and while a nice car the turbo lag is terrible! there is nothing and i mean nothing under 1800 but when the turbo does kick in hold on! :iconwink:
interesting comparison been made with the turbo, and low range is very handy for going down hills
 
thunder039 said:
while talking about turbo lag i have driven a new nissan pathfinder lately and while a nice car the turbo lag is terrible! there is nothing and i mean nothing under 1800 but when the turbo does kick in hold on! :iconwink:
interesting comparison been made with the turbo, and low range is very handy for going down hills
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Turbo lag would be a PITA offroad thus my reason for a supercharger! :twisted: Boost from idle which would make it really good down load and a linear power increase until around 6000rpm.. :cool:
 
If you have a turbo- fit a boost gauge. Yes, it will tell you when boost arrives. But more importantly it can help trouble shoot problems as well
 
i'd like to put a boost gauge in but as it's the missus car and its brand new not sure i can go screwing a gauge pod into the dash....
 
Gidday Biesel

Biesel said:
i'd like to put a boost gauge in but as it's the missus car and its brand new not sure i can go screwing a gauge pod into the dash....
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That's a more than important consideration mate.

Bravery has its limits ... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
I cable tied mine around one of the vents. It moves a bit- but if you take it easy it won't.
 
I've got a turbo at home you can use. Stick in the boot like I did once. I had to take it out when the insurance company said I had not told them the car had a turbo. No, the real story was it was with some other gear in the boot and I forgot about it.
 
Rally said:
I've got a turbo at home you can use. Stick in the boot like I did once. I had to take it out when the insurance company said I had not told them the car had a turbo. No, the real story was it was with some other gear in the boot and I forgot about it.
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Technically then my Forester is dual gearboxed with a stuffed EJ20 N/A that's twin supercharged.
Sounds about right to me :cool: :twisted: :lol:
 
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