P-Plater laws

[aware]

After what feels like an eternity, I pulled the P plates off the car for good!

 

[taza]

After what feels like an eternity, I pulled the P plates off the car for good!

Nice! I get mine off in a few weeks, super excited about it

 

[mr turbo]

Congrats aware :ebiggrin:
I remember when I graduated to my full licience. It's such a good feeling alright

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[thunder039]

After what feels like an eternity, I pulled the P plates off the car for good!

i still have to wait a year and half!! when im 22! crappy victoria!

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday Thunder & Aware

After what feels like an eternity, I pulled the P plates off the car for good!

Congrats for making it through alive, Aware ...

i still have to wait a year and half!! when im 22! crappy victoria!

Thunder, you still aren't hearing what is being said to you.

Also, you don't seem to grasp that the P Plates are there to warn other drivers that you are an inexperienced driver. This allows them to cut you some slack. It also warns them that this slack might be needed.

This can be compared with how you view someone on L Plates (and how all the rest of us view them too).
They are potentially dangerous both to themselves and to other road users. It is sensible that other road users and pedestrians know this. That knowledge lessens the likelihood of other road users taking risks around such drivers, as the L-Plate driver may not react in a fashion that is in any way predictable. In fact, they may even panic, causing an accident in and of itself.

Not every P-Plater is confident at all times. In fact, quite the contrary is true.

BTW, these comments are NOT meant to single you out in particular. Many of them may not even apply to you in particular. However, they apply to the vast majority of inexperienced drivers, most of the time.

After the initial introduction of the P-Plate probationary licence system, older new drivers were exempt from the P-Plate requirements. It is my understanding that the probationary licence system now extends to ALL inexperienced drivers in Oz.

If you are not already aware of it, you will realise that these precautions also extend to Interstate drivers, who are possibly very confused as to where they are going, where they are, etc. This can lead to them doing quite unpredictable things, so it pays to be wary of them.

I know that this applies to me when I am in unfamiliar surroundings, as it does to most (all?) drivers. Some more than others, but it is still a valid general rule. One gets to be able to spot people who are in unfamiliar places or situations, from the often minor unpredictable behaviours they exhibit.

You may care to read this article Probationary Driver Risk

Victorian P-Plate guidelines

Getting your P Plates

The Victorian Licensing System

Which part/s of these documents do you not agree with?
Other than they apply to yourself, along with all other probationary drivers ...

Older people (over 21 y.o.) obtaining a licence for the first time are still subject to these rules, albeit in a slightly modified form:

• minimum 3 months L-Plates;
• no red P-Plates;
• minimum 3 years on green P-Plates.

I have just rung VicRoads and checked this with them.

 

[NachaLuva]

Thunder, while I agree with RB about the dangers of learning to drive in the real world, I also agree with you. I believe there should be national road laws, the same for each state. I think some states like Victoria are overly harsh with many things. I think compulsory driver awareness programs would be much better than extended P-plate times.

Its the difference between regulation (governments being control freaks) and preservation....

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday NL

Thanks RB. I had thought of using 2 switches but prefer my idea for simplicity, ease of installation and not cluttering up the dash.

Thunder, while I agree with RB about the dangers of learning to drive in the real world, I also agree with you. I believe there should be national road laws, the same for each state. I think some states like Victoria are overly harsh with many things. I think compulsory driver awareness programs would be much better than extended P-plate times.

Its the difference between regulation (governments being control freaks) and preservation....

What do you expect after 13 years of having an incompetent 'Nanny State' government?

I am a small "L" liberal. Basically the State should only act in the interests of the community, and not stick its nose into the private affairs and actions of individuals. See John Stuart Mill's and Jeremy Bentham's writings on this subject.

I have just raised the question with VicRoads by email as to why no Forester model appears on their list of recommended first cars, in spite of them all having 4 or 5 star safety ratings.

Particularly considering their suitability for young drivers ... Relevant part below:

"Subject: Licensing

Comments: Why are none of the Subaru Forester series included in your list of recommended first cars for youngsters? Here: First Car List

All Foresters achieve 4 or 5 star ratings since introduction in 1997 - see here:
howsafeisyourcar.com.au

They are an excellent first vehicle for young people wishing to see our wonderful country with there good load space and constant AWD system.
Models up to around 2005/2006 can be bought for below your cut-off point of $14K; with the earlier models being well under this price point.
They all have excellent brakes, steering, roll-over angles, crash worthiness; and are not exactly over-powered if you exclude the turbo models (which you already do ... ).

AND BTW, in my opinion you should have a link to a suggestions page on every page of your web site that includes an automatic link-back reference to the originating page ... Regards, "

I also agree that these things should be standardised between States; however that does not mean I am suggesting that we have a lowest denominator approach to the subject ...

According to the ABS, 17~25 y.o. account for 25% of fatalities, while only accounting for 16% of the population. About 77% of that 25% was accounted for by 17~22 y.o. people. Approximately 2/3 were the driver and 1/3 as passengers in the car.

While these appalling figures have dropped significantly since my youth, they are still pretty horrifying.

Since the ABS figures have been available (1989 reporting year) the figures for each year in this age bracket (17~25 y.o.) have dropped by a total of 50 to 66% as at the end of the 2011 reporting year.

However, within each statistical year, the figures tail off dramatically from 23 to 25 y.o. compared with each year from 17 to 22 y.o. ... Speaks for itself, really. Also happens to back up what I have been saying. It is also in keeping with having P Plates until one reaches 22 y.o. or after four years of driving, whichever comes later.

Governments are merely trying to keep young people (mostly males) alive during this very dangerous period of their lives ... That is a lot better objective than a great deal of what "our" governments tend to do, IMNSHO.

 

[thunder039]

Thanks RB. I had thought of using 2 switches but prefer my idea for simplicity, ease of installation and not cluttering up the dash.

Thunder, while I agree with RB about the dangers of learning to drive in the real world, I also agree with you. I believe there should be national road laws, the same for each state. I think some states like Victoria are overly harsh with many things. I think compulsory driver awareness programs would be much better than extended P-plate times.

Its the difference between regulation (governments being control freaks) and preservation....

thanks! i agree i dont understand why in victoria why we have the most strict learners and p plate rules and while other states such as W.A and QLD are alot less strict

Gidday Thunder & Aware



Congrats for making it through alive, Aware ...



Thunder, you still aren't hearing what is being said to you.

Also, you don't seem to grasp that the P Plates are there to warn other drivers that you are an inexperienced driver. This allows them to cut you some slack. It also warns them that this slack might be needed.

This can be compared with how you view someone on L Plates (and how all the rest of us view them too).
They are potentially dangerous both to themselves and to other road users. It is sensible that other road users and pedestrians know this. That knowledge lessens the likelihood of other road users taking risks around such drivers, as the L-Plate driver may not react in a fashion that is in any way predictable. In fact, they may even panic, causing an accident in and of itself.

Not every P-Plater is confident at all times. In fact, quite the contrary is true.

BTW, these comments are NOT meant to single you out in particular. Many of them may not even apply to you in particular. However, they apply to the vast majority of inexperienced drivers, most of the time.

After the initial introduction of the P-Plate probationary licence system, older new drivers were exempt from the P-Plate requirements. It is my understanding that the probationary licence system now extends to ALL inexperienced drivers in Oz.

If you are not already aware of it, you will realise that these precautions also extend to Interstate drivers, who are possibly very confused as to where they are going, where they are, etc. This can lead to them doing quite unpredictable things, so it pays to be wary of them.

I know that this applies to me when I am in unfamiliar surroundings, as it does to most (all?) drivers. Some more than others, but it is still a valid general rule. One gets to be able to spot people who are in unfamiliar places or situations, from the often minor unpredictable behaviours they exhibit.

You may care to read this article Probationary Driver Risk

Victorian P-Plate guidelines

Getting your P Plates

The Victorian Licensing System

Which part/s of these documents do you not agree with?
Other than they apply to yourself, along with all other probationary drivers ...

Older people (over 21 y.o.) obtaining a licence for the first time are still subject to these rules, albeit in a slightly modified form:

• minimum 3 months L-Plates;
• no red P-Plates;
• minimum 3 years on green P-Plates.

I have just rung VicRoads and checked this with them.

i totally understand what you are saying i just dont agree :iconwink:
while you said p plate drivers are said to be unexperienced, i think that the purpose of the minimum 120hours for l platers was to reduce this, which in my opinion worked well for me. and by the age of 21 if you are not confindent driving then you wont be at 22 either!

 

[Davidov]

i totally understand what you are saying i just dont agree :iconwink:
while you said p plate drivers are said to be unexperienced, i think that the purpose of the minimum 120hours for l platers was to reduce this, which in my opinion worked well for me. and by the age of 21 if you are not confindent driving then you wont be at 22 either!

Thats a big problem is WA. The log book hours are only 25, and a HUGE number of people fake the log book and dont do anywhere near than anyway!

It deffinately shows too, especially on the highway. So many people, surprisingly most arent P platers, are absolute idiots and don't know what they are doing on the highway.

Ive seen idiots overtaking around bends, up hills and in blind spots. Utterly mad. Ive seen people riding up within a couple of meters behind trucks and other cars CONSTANTLY.

And highway emergency reaction situations arent taught at all. It really PISSES me off when people say they should swerve around if an animal like a kangaroo comes on the road.

Never should you swerve on the highway at those speeds. (Unless in exceptional circumstances such as to miss an oncoming car etc).

It infuriates me when a friend, who is a P plater also, stubbornly refuses to admit she is wrong and keeps saying you should always swerve for an animal on the road.

It is far better to brake hard but not overly hard, even if you wont stop in time you will be going far less than 110km/h. You may hit the animal, and cause a fair bit of damage to your vehicle, but its far better than the alternative: losing control of the car/ rolling at those speeds. 9 times our of 10 your dead. Simple as that.

I was lucky that my dad is a very good driver and i did a lot of highway driving as a learner, he taught me a lot.

I think they should just have stricter policies on actually completing the hours on the log book, its scary when you hear of P platers who havent had more than 10 hours driving experience.

Anyway, should this conversation not belong in the road safety thread?

 

[thunder039]

i think the log books for L platers is great i did about 140 before i got my license and because of this my i am confindent and so are my firends. i think due to the log book is why only one person in my year level has died in a car accident not because of the car restrictions, or making us have our p plates untill 22

 

[Ratbag]

G'day again Thunder

thanks! i agree i dont understand why in victoria why we have the most strict learners and p plate rules and while other states such as W.A and QLD are alot less strict

Perhaps that is why the figures are better for young drivers in Victoria than they are in WA and Qld?

Which would you rather be?
Dead?
Seriously injured?
Or put up with laws that are designed to protect you?

Try this comment from VicRoads :

"Young deaths and injuries could be cut by 60 per cent

Australian research estimates that if all young drivers killed or seriously injured in crashes over the past five years had been driving the safest vehicle of the same age as the one they were driving when they crashed, more than 500 young deaths and serious injuries could have been prevented each year.

This is a reduction of deaths and serious injuries of more than 60 per cent."

If you don't find this chilling and horrifying then I don't know what will

i totally understand what you are saying i just dont agree :iconwink:
while you said p plate drivers are said to be unexperienced, i think that the purpose of the minimum 120hours for l platers was to reduce this, which in my opinion worked well for me.

Mate, I have around 30,000+ hours behind the wheel of some kind of vehicle. I still do not consider that I have come across every type of dangerous situation that can (and does ... ) present itself on the road. Not in suburbia; not on the open highway. I merely have the experience necessary to be continually on the lookout for things that have never yet happened to me ...

Have you read any of the links I posted for you? It appears not.
Why do you think I would bother researching this stuff for about an hour, then making a 15 minute phone call to VicRoads, solely for your benefit?

And yes. Having 120 hours supervised driving is a start, just like getting a degree is a start in the learning process. The way you are talking, you seem to think it's a destination. It isn't - not in either case.

and by the age of 21 if you are not confindent driving then you wont be at 22 either!

The ABS statistics tell an utterly different story. You may believe whatever you like (of course), but the population statistics simply do not support what you are saying.

After 22 y.o. the statistics start to tail off, but don't even approach the population mean until young drivers are 25 y.o. or older, in some cases.

Look, Thunder, you might be the safest, most careful, least at risk under-25 y.o. driver ever to take to the roads. I really don't care about that.

When you seriously believe that you are outside the statistics (I do not think that I am outside the statistics; not for a single instant ... ), you become a HUGE risk, not only to yourself, but to everyone else on the road, myself included.

You do not appear to understand that ...

 

[thunder039]

g'day ratbag

first of thanks for you knowledged on stats and effort to research.

i agree that young drivers need restrictions, i also agree that although the freedom of the W.A and QLD rules would be great it is simply not worth the lives to have these rules in place.

i do belive that most rules that the state government have put in place such as the separation or red and green p plates and the hours required by l platers. i also agree with the restrctions for red p platers, but to not carry on untill i am 22. i think the p plates should still end at 21 like they used to, but with the now current restriction would be fair to both young motorist and TAC.
also to regulate this across this country wide would stop young motorist (like myself) being envious of other states

 

[thunder039]

ratbag did vicroad reply to your question about the forester??

 

[Ratbag]

Gidday David

Thats a big problem is WA. The log book hours are only 25, and a HUGE number of people fake the log book and dont do anywhere near than anyway!

These laws are significantly tougher in Victoria. It helps, but does not prevent, young people from killing and maiming themselves and others. There was another one a while ago where the young P-Plate driver survived while killing 3 of his friends ...

I could drive the station ute, the jeep, and the ten ton truck before I ever sat in a driving school car (rare and expensive 48 years ago. We could get our full licence at 17 y.o. in Qld in those days). I did 40 hours of supervised driving school training.

I then managed to lose my licence 3 times in as many years for driving like a complete bloody idiot. I KNOW what young males as a group are capable of; I have done everything in the book, with the exception of killing myself or another; or seriously injuring anyone (or any other kind of injury, for that matter.

Ten years after getting my licence, a situation arose where my LC was hit from the side by a Cortina (made out of badly re-cycled Coke cans ... ). This was in a suburban 60 km/h zone. He shoved me about 16 feet sideways, and bent the front spring shackles on my Landcruiser ...
He wrote off his Cortina; and sued my insurer for his on-going knee injuries.

While the accident was technically my fault (he hit me from the right, so I had failed to give way ... ), he left about 90 feet of black rubber on a wet road, in a 60 km/h zone before hitting me. It taught me a valuable lesson. Had I also been in a Cortina, he would have T-boned me, and I wouldn't be writing this ... The Police estimated his speed at around 110 km/h when he started to lay down the rubber.

From looking at the mess his car was in, I was very surprised he wasn't killed!

It deffinately shows too, especially on the highway. So many people, surprisingly most arent P platers, are absolute idiots and don't know what they are doing on the highway.

Ive seen idiots overtaking around bends, up hills and in blind spots. Utterly mad. Ive seen people riding up within a couple of meters behind trucks and other cars CONSTANTLY.

And highway emergency reaction situations arent taught at all. It really PISSES me off when people say they should swerve around if an animal like a kangaroo comes on the road.

Never should you swerve on the highway at those speeds. (Unless in exceptional circumstances such as to miss an oncoming car etc).

It infuriates me when a friend, who is a P plater also, stubbornly refuses to admit she is wrong and keeps saying you should always swerve for an animal on the road.

Even a cow is softer than a tree ...

It is far better to brake hard but not overly hard, even if you wont stop in time you will be going far less than 110km/h. You may hit the animal, and cause a fair bit of damage to your vehicle, but its far better than the alternative: losing control of the car/ rolling at those speeds. 9 times our of 10 your dead. Simple as that.

I was lucky that my dad is a very good driver and i did a lot of highway driving as a learner, he taught me a lot.

I think they should just have stricter policies on actually completing the hours on the log book, its scary when you hear of P platers who havent had more than 10 hours driving experience.

Stricter policies all round, David.
Too easy to kill yourself in a car.
It only takes a lapse of concentration of a fraction of a second; or one ill-advised action to end in tragedy IME.

 

[Ratbag]

Easy one first, mate

ratbag did vicroad reply to your question about the forester??

Yes. They have allocated a reference number to it, and have a statutory obligation to respond within a week.

I will keep you posted on what happens. Their email is in my resubmit system for next Wednesday.

 

[Rally]

A lot of people are confident they are good drivers. Considering they are not tested properly underlines this sense of security- one without foundation. I see it when our club holds skidpan and track driver training days. Not just young drivers- drivers of all ages. They feel confident- trouble is I don't feel confident with them around. Car control- never taught, never tested. So never expect much. Without aiming this question at any individual, how can you feel confident when you have never experienced and controlled a car that is sliding down the road? What happens when it does? The log book is all well and good, but most drivers could not drive out of sight on a dark night.

I cannot ride motorbikes- I really am hopeless on them. There are people who are like that with cars. The difference is I know I cannot ride motorbikes so I don't. If all the people who could not drive were of a similar view to mine on riding bikes, the world would be a far safer place. But they obviously feel confident enough to plod on. Having a license is no reason to feel confident you can drive- it just means you can pass a test.

The graduated license system is a joke. You could pass you driving test (L's), be in hospital or the south pole for 3 years and emerge with a full license. No learning of of how to break, swerve and recover, cornering, oversteer, understeer or how to combat it. Why are people so confident if they cannot do all of these things?

 

[Ratbag]

G'day again Thunder

g'day ratbag

first of thanks for you knowledged on stats and effort to research.

You are more than welcome, mate.

If discussions such as this help to save one person's life; avoid one person being injured; avoid one person being charged with negligence causing death (aka "culpable driving'); then the effort expended is worth every second of it.

When the Roman Emperor, Marcus Aurelius, said that "The unexamined life is not worth living", he didn't mean that one should look back at the age of 90 something. He meant that each and every one of us should examine our lives every second we are alive; learn from, and act upon, that examination.

i agree that young drivers need restrictions, i also agree that although the freedom of the W.A and QLD rules would be great it is simply not worth the lives to have these rules in place.

My precise point.

i do belive that most rules that the state government have put in place such as the separation or red and green p plates and the hours required by l platers. i also agree with the restrctions for red p platers, but to not carry on untill i am 22. i think the p plates should still end at 21 like they used to, but with the now current restriction would be fair to both young motorist and TAC.

The concessions in this regard that can be made have already been made.
The statistics show that we probably should extend the probationary period until at least 23 y.o..
Probably even better to make it 25 y.o. for ,ales and 23 y.o. for females.

BTW, there is no "unfairness" involved in the probationary licence system.
We ALL hold our licences as a privilege, not as a right ...

also to regulate this across this country wide would stop young motorist (like myself) being envious of other states

I very much doubt it ... :rotfl:

However, I am a great advocate of consistency across the country in all matters, and take these issues up with my MPs when I see them from time to time.

 

[thunder039]

A lot of people are confident they are good drivers. Considering they are not tested properly underlines this sense of security- one without foundation. I see it when our club holds skidpan and track driver training days. Not just young drivers- drivers of all ages. They feel confident- trouble is I don't feel confident with them around. Car control- never taught, never tested. So never expect much. Without aiming this question at any individual, how can you feel confident when you have never experienced and controlled a car that is sliding down the road? What happens when it does? The log book is all well and good, but most drivers could not drive out of sight on a dark night.

I cannot ride motorbikes- I really am hopeless on them. There are people who are like that with cars. The difference is I know I cannot ride motorbikes so I don't. If all the people who could not drive were of a similar view to mine on riding bikes, the world would be a far safer place. But they obviously feel confident enough to plod on. Having a license is no reason to feel confident you can drive- it just means you can pass a test.

The graduated license system is a joke. You could pass you driving test (L's), be in hospital or the south pole for 3 years and emerge with a full license. No learning of of how to break, swerve and recover, cornering, oversteer, understeer or how to combat it. Why are people so confident if they cannot do all of these things?

agreed way to easy to pass your license test i didnt even have to do a hill start in a manual, nor around about. the test should be harder.
there there should also be a requirement for drivers to sit a dangerous driver course that fosuse's on drivers on how to control a car in a danger situation. i myself didnt do one but i have practised personally when noone was around of course :iconwink:

 

[thunder039]

G'day again Thunder



You are more than welcome, mate.

If discussions such as this help to save one person's life; avoid one person being injured; avoid one person being charged with negligence causing death (aka "culpable driving'); then the effort expended is worth every second of it.

When the Roman Emperor, Marcus Aurelius, said that "The unexamined life is not worth living", he didn't mean that one should look back at the age of 90 something. He meant that each and every one of us should examine our lives every second we are alive; learn from, and act upon, that examination.




My precise point.



The concessions in this regard that can be made have already been made.
The statistics show that we probably should extend the probationary period until at least 23 y.o..
Probably even better to make it 25 y.o. for ,ales and 23 y.o. for females.

BTW, there is no "unfairness" involved in the probationary licence system.
We ALL hold our licences as a privilege, not as a right ...



I very much doubt it ... :rotfl:

However, I am a great advocate of consistency across the country in all matters, and take these issues up with my MPs when I see them from time to time.

i think there are other ways to reduce the death toll rather then increasing the probationary age. i personally think that the best way to reduce the death for probationary drivers would be to make the test harder and to have some sort of mandatory course for safe driver to make the driver more experienced.
a experience 21y.o driver will be safer on the road then a 21y.o who is only relatively experienced

 

[Davidov]

agreed way to easy to pass your license test i didnt even have to do a hill start in a manual, nor around about. the test should be harder.
there there should also be a requirement for drivers to sit a dangerous driver course that fosuse's on drivers on how to control a car in a danger situation. i myself didnt do one but i have practised personally when noone was around of course :iconwink:

Neither. I didn't have to do a hill start, or a parallel park even! Even now ive still never done a parallel park because im hopeless at them, id rather find another spot.

i think there are other ways to reduce the death toll rather then increasing the probationary age. i personally think that the best way to reduce the death for probationary drivers would be to make the test harder and to have some sort of mandatory course for safe driver to make the driver more experienced.
a experience 21y.o driver will be safer on the road then a 21y.o who is only relatively experienced

Agreed. I don't think increasing the P plate length with achieve anything at all. Although me personally having P plates makes no difference to me (besides red Ps with a night curfew), but once on green P's i won't really care, as the only difference is you can have a bit of alcohol and drive, and more demerit points. If im driving i wont be drinking at all any so that makes no difference.

Experience is the biggest factor, the best way to do that is more learner training, longer log book hours (in WA) and stricter enforcement that these hours have been completed.