NBN (National Broadband Network)

Davidov

Forum Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Messages
360
Location
Perth, WA
Although i hate the current government, at least they are spending SOME money on improving infrastructure. Most notably is the NBN, one of the most important government projects of the last few decades.

Where roads are concerned they are spending huge money here, they are pretty much resurfacing the whole main freeway, and extending it to 4 lanes in a lot of places. From a WA point of view a lot of good stuff is happening atm, we are seeing a lot of financial investment.
 
The NBN is a luxury that others around the world won't touch due to cost and other important issues. Build decent transport infrastructure so we have less dead people at years end, and stacks more money from decent transport. So much money is lost on poor transport. I don't need NBN, work does not need NBN. We need decent roads. Compared to decent roads, fast trains, better irrigation, the NBN is a long way down the list. We really don't know the cost as no cost benefit analysis was ever done. It was a political decision, not an economic one. It is another huge monopoly to cost us money which the government has created, to go alongside the duopoly of the petrol and grocery industries which has left us with such ridiculously high prices. Considering everything else this mob have done so disastrously, does anyone truly have any faith that the NBN will be anything but yet another rooster up? Forget the NBN, fix the Bruce, Pacific, Princes, Gt Western Newell and all the other goat track so called highways and high speed trains
 
The NBN is a luxury that others around the world won't touch due to cost and other important issues. Build decent transport infrastructure so we have less dead people at years end, and stacks more money from decent transport. So much money is lost on poor transport. I don't need NBN, work does not need NBN. We need decent roads. Compared to decent roads, fast trains, better irrigation, the NBN is a long way down the list. We really don't know the cost as no cost benefit analysis was ever done. It was a political decision, not an economic one. It is another huge monopoly to cost us money which the government has created, to go alongside the duopoly of the petrol and grocery industries which has left us with such ridiculously high prices. Considering everything else this mob have done so disastrously, does anyone truly have any faith that the NBN will be anything but yet another rooster up? Forget the NBN, fix the Bruce, Pacific, Princes, Gt Western Newell and all the other goat track so called highways and high speed trains

A matter of opinion. Australia has the worst internet in the world for a 1st world country by a huge margin. Huge amounts of people and businesses depend on the internet for income, and their general livelyhood. Our irrigation systems are fine.
Other people wont touch an 'NBN like' infrastructure? Look at Japan. Look at sweden. Look at Google FTTH in the USA as well as services such as FiOS. They all have it.

You live in a place that likely has ADSL 2+ reasonably close to an exchange. Likewise your business. What about all the remote cities, such as every city in WA other than Perth just as an example? The internet speed is a joke, and the only solution to bring it up to acceptable standard on par with the rest of the world is the NBN.

The NBN will never become obselete. You cannot get faster than the speed of light. It will be forever upgradable just by switching the transmitters at the nodes.
 
Gidday David

Although i hate the current government, at least they are spending SOME money on improving infrastructure. Most notably is the NBN, one of the most important government projects of the last few decades.

Wired Internet is a joke. I have ADSL2+, but it does absolutely NOTHING for my upload speeds whatsoever.

What most businesses need is reasonable upload speeds (say, 5Mbps), coupled with reasonable download speeds (e.g. 5Mbps ... ). IME, only Microsoft and AVG can achieve download speeds over about 1MBps. I am sure there are other sites that can achieve these speeds, but they are few and far between. 1MBps is ADSL1 speed ... Most sites are between 56 KBps and around 256 KBps IME.

From what I can gather, the NBN will deliver about the speeds I have now, at approximately double the price.

All the rhetoric currently being spruiked by our current "government" and other "experts" does not change the fact one iota that we already have among the best Internet services in the world. Don't rely on the UN 1995 study (as the "government" keeps doing ... ); check out the c.2005 study.

And, just BTW, Keating's "Information Super-highway" has supposedly already delivered what the NBN is promising to do, at vast expense, sometime in the indefinite future ...

I also have no problem with fibre to the node, as the fibre joins can be pre-manufactured as precisely as they need to be in order to work properly. It is fibre to the premises that promises to be a technical nightmare. There is absolutely nothing wrong with co-ax, specially over short distances. It is as fast (fast enough ... ) as fibre - approx. 100,000 m/s vs 297,000 kms/s, but FAR more importantly has approximately identical bandwidth to optical fibre.

Co-ax is cheap and easy to join. Fibre is difficult and expensive to join.

Some other wonderful examples of alarmist waste of money schemes include:

WA built an entire urban railway system including a ticketing system for just under a billion dollars. So far, the Victorian Myki ticketing system has "only" cost $1.5 billion dollars; that's 1,500 piles of one million dollars each. It was a wonderful, unnecessary Labor "government" "initiative" - there was absolutely nothing wrong with the previous ticketing system ... Only to be vastly out-done by their "almost fast train system" at about the same price; and massively out-done by their wonderful desalination plant at some $28 Bn over the next 30 years. Perth may be in dire straits as regards a guaranteed water supply, but Melbourne is not, and never has been. Even at the height of the drought, our reservoirs were still about 30% full ...

I also mention that Perth could run a pipeline from Lake Argyle (downhill all the way ... ) for less than the capital and running costs of your de-sal plant ... I have done the costings.

Brisbane is also building a de-sal plant based on the incorrect and unfounded alarmist predictions of Tim Flannery and some few others. The facts speak for themselves as regards the need for that plant as well.

Decent roads and proper rail freight and passenger services are both far more important than these pie-in-the-sky schemes; as are education, health, disabled and aged services, and help for our Aboriginal Australian brothers and sisters in improving their lot in life.
Less BS and more proper, practical help is what is needed.

If we cannot adequately educate our young; or care for our indigent, aged and infirm; or lift the education, health and economic prospects for our fellow Australians who need it; then all the waffling, rhetoric and BS from "governments" is not worth the paper it is not written on, IMNSHO.

And yeah, I agree with Rally -(?)- when he said "who would engage in a $50Bn project without ANY cost/benefit analysis being done?"
Actually: "Only an idiot would spend $50 billion without doing a cost benefit analysis, but such is life. And our federal government"
Or any sort of costings, for that matter ... :(

:confused: :shake:
 
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Gidday David



Wired Internet is a joke. I have ADSL2+, but it does absolutely NOTHING for my upload speeds whatsoever.

What most businesses need is reasonable upload speeds (say, 5Mbps), coupled with reasonable download speeds (e.g. 5Mbps ... ). IME, only Microsoft and AVG can achieve download speeds over about 1MBps. I am sure there are other sites that can achieve these speeds, but they are few and far between. 1MBps is ADSL1 speed ... Most sites are between 56 KBps and around 256 KBps IME.

:confused: :shake:

Home plans are much different to businesses. And also ADSL2+ is MUCH different to FTTH.
At homes the NBN will offer up to 100/5 Mbps. What it will allow for businesses in particular small businesses is the option for up to 1Gbps/1Gbps speeds or more. Connection times (Ping or Latency) will plummet (this is where we will see the most improvement, the time it actually takes to establish communication between two points).

Right now the fastest you can get in Perth besides some special arrangements/areas is probably 20 Mbps/1mbps. Fastest available in geraldton is about 10/0.7.

Fastest wireless will be able achieve is 12mb/(not sure on upload).

The thing is the NBN has to be done, theres no escaping it. Copper physically cant get any faster. The question is are we going to do the NBN now and stay ahead of the curve, or find that in 5-10 years time everything has gone online and we find ourselves unable to provide the speeds to even load youtube videos?

Anyway this isnt really the place to discuss the NBN.
 
David

Home plans are much different to businesses. And also ADSL2+ is MUCH different to FTTH.
At homes the NBN will offer up to 100/5 Mbps. What it will allow for businesses in particular small businesses is the option for up to 1Gbps/1Gbps speeds or more. Connection times (Ping or Latency) will plummet (this is where we will see the most improvement, the time it actually takes to establish communication between two points).


There is no "ping time" delay of this kind caused by the network itself. This latency is caused by the load on the server at the other end; not by the network ... It can take up to 15 ms to PING my Internet router under certain circumstances; let alone my ISP server, which is almost certainly taking millions of hits per second ...

According to what the NBN Co (i.e. a wholly owned subsidiary of the Aust Gov't Inc ... ) has released so far, the cost to me of what I currently have will at least double. One can only guess at the cost of Gbps connections, for anyone. Maybe major companies and government subsidised entities may be able to afford this, but if so, it will be horrendously subsidised by the ordinary customers on the network.

Do you seriously believe that ANY small business will be able to afford these sorts of connections? Most are whinging and moaning about the cost of ADSL2+, where it is available.

AND you cannot provide this speed to one premises within an area without providing it (potentially) to everyone. EVEN the hype from the idiot in charge of the NBN is not saying that anyone will have Gbps upload speeds ...

These speeds are yet more hyperbole from the masters of such BS, David.

Right now the fastest you can get in Perth besides some special arrangements/areas is probably 20 Mbps/1mbps. Fastest available in geraldton is about 10/0.7.

I am genuinely surprised that speeds in Geraldton are very, very nearly as fast as I achieve in practice over my ADSL2+ line!


IF you are prepared to pay for a 572 Mbps X25 PAD, you have been able to rent one from the PMG's Department since before I was employed by it starting in 1971 ... The price has dropped somewhat in the meantime ...

Fastest wireless will be able achieve is 12mb/(not sure on upload).

I also do not know about wireless upload speeds, but my clients routinely get far faster download speeds than this. I suggest that you check here, for just one provider ...
https://go.bigpond.com/wireless/

Seems that up to 40 Mbps download speed is available right now in CBD locations ...

By the time the NBN is actually functioning, in about 30 years time ... I wonder what wireless speeds will be being achieved by then?

BTW, wired Internet access is listed among the top ten "dead" technologies ... And yet here we are spending untold dollars on this wonderful, but barely breathing technology ...

The thing is the NBN has to be done, theres no escaping it. Copper physically cant get any faster. The question is are we going to do the NBN now and stay ahead of the curve, or find that in 5-10 years time everything has gone online and we find ourselves unable to provide the speeds to even load youtube videos?

We are already way ahead of the curve, and our "government" has done everything in its power to destroy the provider of those services - Telstra ...

Anyway this isnt really the place to discuss the NBN.

Maybe not, but this is the OT forum, and the subject is of great interest to almost all people in this country. It will also have dramatic financial impact for existing users who only want to preserve what they currently have (e.g. for me ... ).
 
Hey guys lets not start any arguments here. Yes we can all have opinions but we don't want to start any issues.

I for one will not be discussing this as I know my frustrations will cause arguments with mutliple memebers.. :)

I will say that I am for the NBN and at work (IT job and university) the benefits to the rural people of Australia will be outstanding when it arrives. Not for the average user like yourselfs but for hospitals, clinics and medical centres mainly. Businesses will also have the ability to have live video chat sessions with people on the otherside of the world or country without the issue of lag and the likes. On other important thing is that it will likely bring business to Australia. Hosting of websites and databases since we have a fast connection throughout the whole country. In regonal areas the best you can get is dial-up or ADSL 1 with a max connection of 1.5mbps or 8mbps, usually with high ping and shocking line attenuation resulting in a horribly slow connection.

Anyway I thought I might just mention some of the positive things that it will bring.

Oh and Ratbag, like anything the price will come down, if not half after the first year of it being nearly nation wide.

Taza
 
It should be cool Taza. The debate about global warming showed we can respect other people with different views. Long may that continue. I understand the hospitals and universities already have optic fibre, but I am happy to be corrected.

Hey guys lets not start any arguments here. Yes we can all have opinions but we don't want to start any issues.

I for one will not be discussing this as I know my frustrations will cause arguments with mutliple memebers.. :)

I will say that I am for the NBN and at work (IT job and university) the benefits to the rural people of Australia will be outstanding when it arrives. Not for the average user like yourselfs but for hospitals, clinics and medical centres mainly. Businesses will also have the ability to have live video chat sessions with people on the otherside of the world or country without the issue of lag and the likes. On other important thing is that it will likely bring business to Australia. Hosting of websites and databases since we have a fast connection throughout the whole country. In regonal areas the best you can get is dial-up or ADSL 1 with a max connection of 1.5mbps or 8mbps, usually with high ping and shocking line attenuation resulting in a horribly slow connection.

Anyway I thought I might just mention some of the positive things that it will bring.

Oh and Ratbag, like anything the price will come down, if not half after the first year of it being nearly nation wide.

Taza
 
^ Rally that's not the NBN's fault though, it's the politicians and the governments. Now thats a whole nother discussion all together!

I'm keen to come for a drive over there sometime in the next 5 years.
 
Gidday Rally & Taza

It should be cool Taza. The debate about global warming showed we can respect other people with different views. Long may that continue.

Quite right.

As I said in that thread, one should establish the facts as best they can be established first. It is quite possible that people will still come to different views and conclusions having done this. I respect that right to the max.

However, one should do one's due diligence as to the facts first. Discussions such as this one also help us all to ascertain those facts, and also to gain an appreciation of the viewpoints of others as well.

I understand the hospitals and universities already have optic fibre, but I am happy to be corrected.

Yeah, but funny that they cannot seem to get decent upload speeds over those existing FTTH optic fibre networks.

I have access to both 30 Mbps cable and ADSL2+ here. ADSL2 provides faster upload speeds than 30 Mbps cable available here, now does.

Ok Cool, I wasn't around to read that thread at the time. Just don't want to see s**t hit the fan :)

It won't; or shouldn't.

Adults should conduct themselves as such, regardless of what education, gifts and talents that each of us might bring to the table, as it were.

All have an inalienable right to speak, and to be heard.

All have a duty to educate ourselves in whatever way is necessary to fulfil our role/s in society to the best of our individual ability to do so.

Discussions such as this provide us all with opportunities to enhance our knowledge, insights, and to see the PoV of others. These are all very important and valid endeavours.

We do not have any kind of duty to agree with each other, merely to treat each other with dignity, decency and respect.
 
David




There is no "ping time" delay of this kind caused by the network itself. This latency is caused by the load on the server at the other end; not by the network ... It can take up to 15 ms to PING my Internet router under certain circumstances; let alone my ISP server, which is almost certainly taking millions of hits per second ...

According to what the NBN Co (i.e. a wholly owned subsidiary of the Aust Gov't Inc ... ) has released so far, the cost to me of what I currently have will at least double. One can only guess at the cost of Gbps connections, for anyone. Maybe major companies and government subsidised entities may be able to afford this, but if so, it will be horrendously subsidised by the ordinary customers on the network.

https://www.internode.on.net/residential/fibre_to_the_home/nbn_plans/

These are ACTUAL plans for the NBN. It is out now. There are already many sites in the NBN already working. Majority of the Geraldton area will be completed and running within the next 2 years. Whole project will be completed in 10 years.

Those prices for what we get are FAR better than what can be had now.

25/5 with 300GB for $75 a month (remember this will ACTUALLY get ~20-25mb speed at your house) is pretty darn good in my book.
 
I guess it looks ok- I wonder how it compares cost/speed wise to overseas? Point is, we have borrowed $50 billion to get to this point, which will have to be paid back- with interest. If we have say 10,000,000 income earners in the country to pay a $50 billion broadband bill, does that mean that every tax payer is paying $5,000 (Plus interest) for the NBN? Works out pretty expensive in my book when I am more than happy with what I have now. With interest it might cost us each $15-$20,000 each, over the life of the (say 20 year) loan, as well as usage charges of $12,000 over 20 years- i could buy a new Forester for that! It sure fails my cost benefit analysis. And that assumes it comes in on budget- doubt it
 
I guess it looks ok- I wonder how it compares cost/speed wise to overseas? Point is, we have borrowed $50 billion to get to this point, which will have to be paid back- with interest. If we have say 10,000,000 income earners in the country to pay a $50 billion broadband bill, does that mean that every tax payer is paying $5,000 (Plus interest) for the NBN? Works out pretty expensive in my book when I am more than happy with what I have now. With interest it might cost us each $15-$20,000 each, over the life of the (say 20 year) loan, as well as usage charges of $12,000 over 20 years- i could buy a new Forester for that! It sure fails my cost benefit analysis. And that assumes it comes in on budget- doubt it

The thing is a huge amount of people dont have access to the internet that you do. And do you think we can stick with the net we have now forever? Thats what they thought about dialup and look where we are now.
We need to upgrade at some point.

BTW theres no fighting here, tis but friendly debate about a very important topic. Debates are good. :)
 
BTW theres no fighting here, tis but friendly debate about a very important topic. Debates are good. :)

Yep,
Some facts for a new discussion.

1. The Nissan X-Trail is better than the Forester.
2. The Toyota Kluggar is better than the Tribeca
3. Only old people and lesibians drive Subarus (Proof here: https://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/bloguploads/siri-fail-lesbian.jpg)
4. Burnt out Subaru's.
-
DDN_05-01-2010_WEATHER_01_d124610f_t325.jpg


-
f8bdee29165c049b6dd54088ed677e38_resized.jpg


Discuss :lol:
 
I accept the need to upgrade. But why jump the queue? We've been waiting decades for better transport. The internet is a convenience for individuals- health care, getting to work etc is a necessity- no one doubts the benefits of broadband. I'd like a TV projector for my house, a 2.5 litre engine for the WRX, an I-pad, some furniture and so on. But I have to prioritise it. By giving the money for broadband without looking at alternatives- it is saying that what for the vast majority of people is a convenience- a luxury- is more important than saving lives and fuel and reducing pollution from better road and rail and health care.

This thread started off by saying how bad the Bruce Highway is. People risk much travelling on bad roads. The NBN takes the money that could be used to improve it. Have we become so used to sub standard transport in this country we accept mediocrity? The same may be true of the internet, but look at what your $ can buy. No matter how good NBN will be, there is no excuse for not doing a cost benefit analysis.
 
1) Utter rubbish
2) No idea, not driven a Tribeca. But if the Klunker is better, the Tribeca must be pretty bad
3) You live in an interesting neighbourhood
4) Just goes to show Landcruiser owners will seek revenge on our cars when they see how good they are!

Yep,
Some facts for a new discussion.

1. The Nissan X-Trail is better than the Forester.
2. The Toyota Kluggar is better than the Tribeca
3. Only old people and lesibians drive Subarus (Proof here: https://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/bloguploads/siri-fail-lesbian.jpg)
4. Burnt out Subaru's.
-
DDN_05-01-2010_WEATHER_01_d124610f_t325.jpg


-
f8bdee29165c049b6dd54088ed677e38_resized.jpg


Discuss :lol:
 
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https://www.internode.on.net/residential/fibre_to_the_home/nbn_plans/

These are ACTUAL plans for the NBN. It is out now. There are already many sites in the NBN already working. Majority of the Geraldton area will be completed and running within the next 2 years. Whole project will be completed in 10 years.

Those prices for what we get are FAR better than what can be had now.

25/5 with 300GB for $75 a month (remember this will ACTUALLY get ~20-25mb speed at your house) is pretty darn good in my book.

May I respectfully suggest that you read the information in the link that you provided?

It does not appear to say what you think it says, IMHO ...

When you look into additional costs, check out: cabling of the premises (not covered ...); cost of multiple lines (not even mentioned ... ); set up costs with all new h/w.

Check out the provisos they put on actual vs theoretical speeds.
I find that cable is brilliant (download speeds) when the kids are off-line (at school; middle of the night; etc ... ). It dies a death at around 1530H to 1600H when the kids get home from school. Speeds become absolutely tragic. This will merely happen further upstream with the proposed architecture (topology) of the NBN.

Also note that they have a few dozen housing estates "under construction" on the mainland. There is no significant infrastructure roll out even over the horizon, AFAICS.

When the PMG decided to upgrade all exchanges in Oz for STD (something everyone here takes for granted; and the Americans would die for! Don't even mention it to the Canadians ... ), it required the upgrade/replacement of every exchange in Oz. It was planned to take 25 years. It was completed 2-3 years ahead of plan, and significantly under budget. Remember that this was an upgrade of an existing network.

Yet here we have the NBN Co (the Australian Government, Inc) telling us that they can build and commission an entirely new national network in 10 years! ROTFLMAO!!

I also note that the NBN Co is somewhat vague about how many of their (forced) customers will only have wireless network, NOT their much hyped, much vaunted, super-fast, FTTH (but NOT into the home - that's our problem). And how much is that going to cost to re-wire an existing property? A grand? Two grand? Three?

Lots of soft, furry, feel-good, touchy feely stuff, but bugger all hard facts.

If I sound just a touch cynical about grandiose schemes dreamed up by paranoid psychotic "governments", it is only because I have heard and experienced all this hyperbolic BS rhetoric a number of times during my life. And it usually ends in tears.
 
1) Utter rubbish
2) No idea, not driven a Tribeca. But if the Klunker is better, the Tribeca must be pretty bad
3) You live in an interesting neighbourhood
4) Just goes to show Landcruiser owners will seek revenge on our cars when they see how good they are!


I'm talking out my a**e about the lot, just wanted to see what people would say :lol:
 
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