New shell gas with nitrogen

[subaru-offroad]

Howdy again.

I just got done taking a ride and saw a shell gas station offering nitrogen enriched fuel. I did some research about it, and decided to write an article about it. After in depth research, it turns out it contains 5x epa required amount of detergent, and more than double top tier gasoline standard for detergent. Plus nitrogen is an inert gas used to prevent fire in space shuttle, oil rigs, aircraft, and also in your tires. So how on earth is this fire resistant material going to help my engine?

Is this amount of detergent good or bad? Anyone used it? It sounds great because it fights gunk and carbon, but is diluting my gasoline with more cleaner going to affect my immediate performance ust to save a couple of $$$ later?

It sounds good, but it also sounds like a way for gasoline companies to dilute and make more $$ per gal pumped out of the earth.
what do you think? nitrogen gas a good intention, or bad?


UPDATE! CONTAINS AMIDES THAT DESTROY PLASTIC, RUBBER, AND PROMOTE FUNGI GROWTH.
DO NOT USE THIS FUEL.

 

[Hilly]

Hmmm - interesting. I assume it is a U.S. only fuel at the moment? I couldn't find anything on the Aus site.

I have to say my car runs smoother on Caltex and BP than it ever did on the Shell PULP/Optimax/V-Power/insert_next_trendy_Shell_name.

Runs even smoother now my head gaskets have been done...at only 105,000km.

 

[Bumper]

My understanding is that nitrogen is a gas at room temperature (like in the tyres). Can't see how they keep in in the liquid unless the petrol is like a carbonated drink!

 

[ian059]

My understanding is that nitrogen is a gas at room temperature (like in the tyres). Can't see how they keep in in the liquid unless the petrol is like a carbonated drink!

My Forrie might like a little "bubbly" every now and then 'hic'. :lol:

 

[dicknose]

The only "gas" involved is the US term for fuel!

The nitrogen isnt gas - its in a molecule with the detergent.
So a better description would be
petrol with detergent that has nitrogen!
The fuel doesnt have the nitrogen, the detergent does.
The idea is that the detergent is more stable (and hence effective) with nitrogen added to it. And thats added in the molecule, not just "mixed"

 

[Rally]

Yes, the US term is confusing because when they say gas I assume they mean.... gas, such as LPG or CNG. I am not sure what the specific advntage of nitrogen is, but 2 thoughts come to mind. If it is a fire retardent, I am not sure I want such a thing in my combustion chamber. The second thing is it might clean the combustion chamber and valve stems which may assist emmissions in some way?

 

[eden]

nitrogen is a gas which makes up most of our atmosphere. what they have done is attached the nitrogen molecule to the detergents making it a lot more stable under extreme circumstances. eg racing,reving the engine or turbos/superchargers which creates a higher temp, burning off the detergent before it gets time to do its gob.(brake down the "gunk/build-up") by attaching the nitrogen to the detergent its a able to do its job under high temps, better for your engine. Shell reckon they've done tests and cars are getting the same times in a varity of engines but will constantly get better times as your engine is cleaner for longer. they have also worked on this reserch with major engine manufacters

 

[eden]

If it is a fire retardent, I am not sure I want such a thing in my combustion chamber.

a retardant maybe but a neutralizer no. the ratio between petrol to the nitrogen enriched detergent would be huge. i reckon someone from the U.S (subaruoffroad) should do test for everyone. full tank on nitrogen and full tank on normal with very similar driving patterns. whata say mate? will give it a go:ebiggrin:

 

[Rally]

Yeah, why not. You seem tyo be up to speed on this more than I am. But you are going to have to wait till it gets here. Let's se how it goes in the US I guess

 

[mr turbo]

i reckon someone from the U.S (subaruoffroad) should do test for everyone. full tank on nitrogen and full tank on normal with very similar driving patterns. whata say mate? will give it a go:ebiggrin:

Sounds good to me.

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[Eastie]

Why not just toss a coin? after all one tank on both won't show much other than prove one uncontrolled test v's another. To get a result you need to work out how to remove the variable of the logic control which meausures/leans the air/fuel ratio, not to menstion the infinite other variables involved.

As mentioned, nitrogen isn't always in gaseous form, just take anhyrous ammonia or ammonium nitrate fertilisers for example - just two examples of "nitrogen" in far higher concentrations than is found in any petroleum fuel.

 

[Real Lyte]

I would try it but only the richer areas have shell gas stations. I think they phrased the whole thing wrong with saying there is N2(g) in your fuel because from what I understand that isn't how it works (theoretically). Apparently they bonded N(aq or l? maybe) to the detergent molecules so they are less likely to become burned off in the combustion cycles. The only problem I can see with this is getting excessive amounts of detergent built up (I have no clue the ramifications of this) instead of carbon deposits because it is so highly nonreactive.

 

[eden]

Why not just toss a coin? after all one tank on both won't show much other than prove one uncontrolled test v's another..

if you havn't tried it how would you know? e.g. if someone uses close to a tank per week just going to work everyday. and there's an increase or decrease of say 20kms. i would call that a difference. it would be better tested with obd2 reader or ems yes, but 20kms would be reasonable doubt for me. i tried that sh1tty e10 fuel once to see how it went and as soon as i left the pump i noticed a slight lack of power. at the end off the tank i was about 40kms down from a normal tank.

 

[mr turbo]

it would be better tested with obd2 reader or ems yes, but 20kms would be reasonable doubt for me. i tried that sh1tty e10 fuel once to see how it went and as soon as i left the pump i noticed a slight lack of power. at the end off the tank i was about 40kms down from a normal tank.

Me too!! Once bitten & twice shy for that e10 crap fuel.
I lost roughly 50-60km's on that tank & a sh1t load of power also.
What was worse still, it cost me more per ltr aswell.

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[ian059]

Me too!! Once bitten & twice shy for that e10 crap fuel.
I lost roughly 50-60km's on that tank & a sh1t load of power also.
What was worse still, it cost me more per ltr aswell.

Regards
Mr Turbo

That sucks. E10 is about 5 cents/litre cheaper up here in QLD. We use 98 RON in our Forester X, it's about 10 - 15 cents/litre dearer than ULP but we get about a 10 percent increase in Kms, which was better economic sense when the prices were high but for now we just like the way the car runs on it.

IanC

 

[nipper]

Unless they formulate it differntly there then in the US I am not buying what you are seeing. In the states its been around since the early 1980's and really with no loss of performance of mileage. Its mostly psychological. Even when "winter" gas here is blamed for the same thing, its because, well it's einter and cold outside. It's not the gas.


From cartalk:
In other words they're putting something like N,N-Dimethylformamide in their gas. Which does clean very well. When I change my oil I put about 100 mL of DMF in the empty chamber to clean it. This dramatically reduces carbon deposits, cleaning it very well. I'm a chemist so I can legally do this, otherwise I wouldn't play with DMF, it dissolves practically anything. So basically their new gas cleans your tank a little better than other gas.

Since there is really no NEW information on this, no lab tests, no nothing, its may be just a marketing gimmick to seperate shell from all the other brands of gas out there. Another possability is that they added ammonia to the fuel. I am not a chemists, but oxides of nitrogen is one of those things that add to smog. Bt adding it to the fuel MAYBE the are reformulating whatever comes out of the tailpipe (my expertise is mechanical). Also on the flip side, it may be a cheaper additive (or two)then something they are using now, so they are using it as a marketing ploy

 

[Bumper]

I guess with that much detergent in the system we won't need the annual Clean Up Australia Day - we'll all be sudsy just from driving to buy the milk!:rotfl:

 

[Rally]

I tried some of the Shell 100 octane racing fuel they sold a while back which had ethanol in it, but it was a waste because it was wet and exceptionally slippery and I did not use much throttle. But sill I got 100km less from the tank. The V8 Supercars are using E85 this year and I reckon at Bathurst they wear out there clutches from doing so many pitstops. The E10 is just political rubbish. You burn so much extra fuel you do more harm than good. And if it made from corn rather than sugar cane it has almost no enviromental value even if it was burning at the same rate as normal petrol.

Me too!! Once bitten & twice shy for that e10 crap fuel.
I lost roughly 50-60km's on that tank & a sh1t load of power also.
What was worse still, it cost me more per ltr aswell.

Regards
Mr Turbo

 

[subaru-offroad]

Well I did some more research and updated the article.. It turns out the science behind this stuff suggests it is an amide, (biodiesel)

Updated article
https://www.examiner.com/x-4824-Tampa-Sports-Car-Examiner~y2009m3d22-Nitrogen-Enriched-Gasoline

Biodiesel ran in a vehicle not properly setup for it is really bad b/c

eats rubber
eats plastic
promotes fungi growth

DO NOT USE THIS CRAP IN YOUR ENGINE. Flat out. It's just going to ruin it. If you look through shells articles about the gas, they even state it was formulated by shell and auto manufacturers... What does a business do thats in trouble? Looks for more ways to make money (selling parts)


This whole thing reaks of bad intentions... plus the combustion of this new element is theorized to release up to 200x more harmful green house gases than standard gas.

There's more. it's bad for paint too, so when you make that one lil drip after getting gas, it's going to eat it more than non-nitro gas. Looks like big auto gets to sell more touch up paint too.

I had high hopes for this gas at first, but then I got into the research and it really went sour. Everything I've found about this stuff it's just plain bad. I hate to write negative articles but with all the bad things its hard to make it positive.

 

[nipper]

That really doesnt answer the question as top what it is.

Knowing corporations like i do, i can safely make some statements i am sure of.

The #1 thing a company wants to do is to reduce costs and maximize profits. As it stands this is an answer to a question no one has asked (why dont we have more nitrogen in our fuels). My educated guess (being an automotive neingger, granted fuels are not my specialty) is that they found something in the lab that is a cheaper subsitute (lab being the operative word) then something they are using now as an additive. They may have discovered that it may even have some benefits other then thier bottom line (which BTW has been hurt by the crashing fuel prices).

Wht they have missed is that everyone has been taught that oxides of nitrogen is a smog making chemical. Granted that N2 in fuel is not a biggy, as we consume tons of the stuff since it is already in the air. Even my first reaction was why are they putting N2 in fuel when N2 makes smog. i bet almost everyone thinks the same thing (even ythough it is not true due to the massively complex chemical reactions that happen in combustion).

There was talk not too long ago of auto mfg's in the USA being forced to endorse specific brands of fuel, because so much fiddling was going on to fuels to be able to sell it cheaply, the cars were getting damaged. The fuel industry heard this and stopped playing around with the fuel quality. I get the feeling they are trying to sneak this in while the entire industry is too busy trying to stay alive then to pick a fight.

I would not use it in my car, or anything else that burns gasoline in my shed. I wonder what it would do to my 10hp single piston genset.

nipper