L-Series or Liberty? (Leone or Legacy)

[Blufires]

Hi everyone, new member here from a Peugeot family (yes, those do exist). I'm looking at buying my fiance a car as a surprise wedding gift so she can get her license. We'd like to do some offroad camping holidays down the track, but don't want a big SUV with awful visibility that chews fuel. So I'm looking for an automatic AWD/4WD 4 door car, preferably a wagon.

My first thought was a Leone (L-Series) with an EJ swap or an AE95 Carolla with a 4AGZE swap. Turns out AE95's are like rocking horse poop so I'm looking at building a Leone with an EJ now.

I can't afford to do the whole build right away, so the question is this. Should I get an auto Liberty sedan now and get the L-Series shell later on to drop the EJ engine and transmission into, or should I get an auto L-Series now and get the donor Liberty for the engine later on?

It's going to be a daily so fuel efficiency is important. I can't work out if a 1.8 carby engine with 300KG less weight will be more efficient than a 2.0 EFI engine with 300KG more weight. It's all city driving in the super-hilly north side of Brisbane.

Should the final build use a Liberty auto gearbox or a L-Series auto gearbox? The Liberty ones are easier to find and I'm guessing they have lockup for better fuel consumption, but I think the L-Series ones have low range and center diff lock.

TL;DR
Is the Liberty as good as the Leone off road? Is the newer AWD or older 4WD transmission better (it's not going to be driven fast or get a turbo)? Which would use less fuel? Would I be better off just supercharging and converting the EA engine to Megasquirt fuel injection?

 

[Beigewagon]

Some food for thought. The L-Series auto is only a three speed, where as the Liberty has a four speed. Also, only the manuals have a Low range, not autos, if that is what you want.

L-Series 'boxes do not bolt straight up to EJ motors, they have different bolt patterns.

Liberty 'boxes are AWD, not sure if they have an electrically controlled centre lock. L-Series are front wheel drive on road with the ability to engage the rear end by locking the throughout of the gearbox, so making it 4WD when off-road.

L-Series are more nimble and monuverable, but less powerful. Lib. is more roomy both seating, and cargo.

Beigewagon.

 

[kiwifoz]

Having owned a 3AT Leone (albeit a turbo one, with similar power to an EJ engine) I would have to say keep the AWD 4spd Legacy auto (code 4EAT). This will give you full-time AWD too, which will give you much better handling onroad (as well as a better spread of gears), and with the lockup mod you can lock the centre diff for offroading. This contrasts with the old 3AT which is full-time front wheel drive with optional switchable 4wd. It does not have a centre diff, rather a locked coupling, so 4wd cannot be used on tarmac. Lastly, the 3AT has a reputation for being weak and easily cooked... Whereas the 4EAT is one of Subaru's toughest gearboxes and if you want you can get it with 4.44 gearing, which allows the fitment of larger tyres without stressing the engine. The 3AT has 3.9 gearing. You'd have to swap the 4.44 or 4.11 rear diff out of the Legacy regardless as all Leones had either 3.7 or 3.9 ratio rear diffs.

I would say buy the Legacy and take your time to find a good Leone body-wise. Since you'll be keeping the Legacy auto, you could actually just buy a manual Leone and swap in the pedals from the Leggy - the carbed EA82 with the vacuum-actuated 3AT or 5-speed manual have very few electronics to run them.

And as above, no Subaru autos have dual-range. The benefits with keeping the 3AT are IMO virtually none as you'd have to pay for an adaptor plate to match it to the EJ, and chances are it'd crap out soon anyway. For the amount of work involved in EJ swapping it, you may as well keep the EJ tranny. Plus I'm not sure if the vacuum actuator of the 3AT is even compatible with the EJ...

Cheers. I tried to limit the amount of jargon but I'm afraid a fair amount crept in. :rotfl:
Here's the 4EAT lockup mod link: https://www.rs25.com/forums/f8/t99075-4eat-diff-lock-switch-handbrake-mod-torquemada-lite.html

 

[idw]

Turns out AE95's are like rocking horse poop so I'm looking at building a Leone with an EJ now.

That was my first car! or second technically. Vacuum solenoid to lock the diff was a bit dodgey on them, used to have to get under the car and engage it my hand. Gearbox was a f70 r30 split at best on road made for fun round abouts even with the 4afe. Looked at an agze sway before i got rid of it for my forester, but the forester was better all around off the bat so i went with that. Great little car though ugly as sin, did 70,000km with a cracked head and wrecked it with 380,000k on the odo.

The L series would be a decent allround car and pretty good off road with a decent set of tyres, lib is easily a better car on the road and comfy. I've always though about tracking down a high roof touring wagon and performing a manual conversion on one for the efi and other nice bits

 

[Blufires]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I think I'll try to snag this 2.5L auto Liberty Heritage sedan I've found (replacement CVs are cheap right?). That way I get nice leather seats to replace the ancient cloth Leone ones too . I probably won't be doing any serious offroading for a while yet (although some dirt road driving is a requirement for your first Subaru). My uncle owns a car dealership, so I might ask him to keep an eye out for a Leone trade-in that I can buy off him wholesale.

I know this is heracy to scooby fans, but I'd prefer if it was FWD with 4WD only for offroad. My fiance doesn't even have her license yet, so understeer is a great safety feature. It sounds like the early 4EAT boxes send most power to the front anyway.

About that electronic diff lock switch mod, I've started reading into the gearbox designs. It turns out the 4EAT I'm most likely to get (from 4cyl non turbo cars) has no center diff. It has a clutch coupling like the 3AT, SVX, VW, Mini and most other "AWD" cars. The difference is it has a better quality slipper clutch so that it can be 10% enabled all the time, unlike these other cars where it only kicks in after slippage occurs. It should be fine as long as I can install a lock switch to just enable the clutch actuator with 100% duty cycle. I'd prefer to replace it with a torsen mechanical LSD like real rally cars use, so that the axle with more grip always gets more power, but they tend to cost about $800-$1000 from my experience with FWDs. Is if hard to track down the viscous centers for the front and rear diffs?

Oh yeah one more thing. If the fake center diff is controlled by a traction control computer, will I need to retrofit ABS sensors to the Leone hubs or are they housed in the diffs?

 

[jf1sf5]

If you buy the Legacy 2,5 have a look at the head gaskets.

I didn't know that torsen diffs are available for the center diff…?

And welcome here !

 

[NachaLuva]

G'day

Lots of good info on the 4EAT.

A LSD is made for the front diff on an auto but very hard to find. PM Pezimm as he's been trying to find one for his Forester XT.

Rear LSDs are easy to get, just not cheap. Cusco & KAAZ both do them or you can chase a s/h Subaru plated diff. Best to get the complete diff with axles so you dont have to find matching ones. A lot of people on forums like Rexnet and RS Liberty Club

Autos use a MPT (multi plate transfer) for the centre instead of a diff. With I think some models, when you engage 1st or 2nd & the "lock" button, it locks it in that gear plus locks it at 50/50 split. Or you can do the mod, good thread on here 4EAT Diff lock switch

 

[Blufires]

Good to know, I'll check the head gaskets (it's done 370k, so who knows what's lurking).

I haven't seen torsen center diffs but I assumed they're available since most Peugeot/Audi/Renault group A and B rally homogelation cars use them from factory.

My background is electronics (I even grew up in a Tandy store), so that center lock mod is a 5 minute job that's definitely happening.

Down the track I'll build a turbo Leone with an NA 4EAT, remove the front diff & weld up the torque converter. Then I'll have a RWD that uses the MPT as a clutch. Why do all this? Because I'll build an electronic controller for it that shifts and clutches for you with paddle shifters (electronically controlling the shift solenoids). This way it should be possible to have it shift fast enough to keep the throttle floored through changes and not lose boost. Obviously the flywheel will not be lightened or it will over-rev during shifts. I might fill the torque converter back up with oil after welding to add more flywheel weight.

 

[El_Freddo]

G'day mate,

So we've gone from an auto semi offroader to full blown odd rwd auto drifter? That didn't take long!

Sounds like you've got a plan. The L series wagons in fact have more room in the cargo department than the Liberty's cargo space! Found this out the hard way one snow trip after swapping cars at the bottom of the mountain...

EJ25 should be plenty! Also consider the forester as it will be setup for 26/27 inch tyre diameter with the gearing of the auto without you having to do anything other than fit a lift kit to the L series when you get it.

Cheers

Bennie

 

[AndrewT]

If you want an auto I'd go a Liberty over an L series for sure, way more advanced and reliable box really. Also you'll just generally have less issues with the car, I've found Libs just more realiable than the old L series. L series is great if you don't mind laying a spanner on it fairly often, unless you plan to spend quite a bit of time and money restoring it mechanically at the start.

Bennie that's quite surprising. I've never actually measured or compared between my Gen1 lib wagon and L series wagon but the Lib certainly seems bigger. Must be just the way it looks!

 

[Subytim]

sorry for the wall of text incoming.

As an owner of a very neat very clean 3 speed automatic L series I will say it's a really fun car to own and drive, its parts are very very cheap (timing belt kit cost me about 200 bucks) while I've had some fun in the past year and half with mine If you can find a mint L series automatic you are doing well as there isn't alot of them around anymore certainly not without cancer.

I will say the EA82 is abit underpowered more noticeably climbing hills like Toowoomba range it will be max reving to maintain like 70kms an hour. But offroad I find it goes just as good as my brother's duel range sports wagon there is nowhere his sports wagon could go that my 3 speed couldn't from what I have observed.

I find on road it feels to me like it is out of place abit because it feels to more at home on the dirt roads if you do end up getting the carburetor ea82 get the carbi rebuilt (kit is 70 dollars). and get plenty of vacuum hoses

Towing, well it has a tow bar and one of my requirements when I bought mine was for an offroader/daily/work horse, I had to go pick up a cabinet from Burpengary and I live in Ipswich so I went the west road out near Summerset Dam towing a mate of mine's Ute tray trailer with mechanical brakes which had 2 big tool boxes in it all up it would've been easily 750 KG without the cabinet now doing like 60 up the ranges and 80 on those roads somehow it manged to use about 14L per 100 (not bad imo) but coming back via the highway it drank 17L per 100 och.

so I would say it is almost as economical around town as it is on the highway I would defiantly look into an EJ conversion and what I would (possibly will be) looking into is fitting the EJ with it's 4 speed automatic whether it means I gotta go to AWD or whether it's possible to keep the the on demand system.

below is a video of mine out at Ripley QLD on the standard tyres.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xXbgYprs_Q"]YouTube[/ame]

 

[Subytim]

and also hunting down a wrecking touring wagon with mint interior is a worth while swap height adjustable seats which are way more comfy than standard and a boot light (which can come from any modern suby but also map reader lights