Engine Torque vs Power

NachaLuva

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People always quote horsepower as what makes an engine powerful but thats only for fast acceleration. Most driving, esp going up hills, towing & esp offroad is all about torque.

The EJ22 is meant to be slightly more powerful (HP) than the EJ20 but a lot more torque :lildevil:

I'd love to see the actual figures...
 
Gidday NL

People always quote horsepower as what makes an engine powerful but thats only for fast acceleration.

Actually, top speed is a function of Power (KW/HP), frontal area, gearing, rolling resistance, etc. Acceleration is a function of torque, gearing, inertia, frontal area, etc. Implicit in this is the shape of the torque curve, maximum torque, and all that sort of stuff.

Most driving, esp going up hills, towing & esp offroad is all about torque.

Yup. A function of the maximum torque, gearing, inertia and the shape of the torque curve.

The EJ22 is meant to be slightly more powerful (HP) than the EJ20 but a lot more torque :lildevil:

I'd love to see the actual figures...

Liberty 2.2L N/A donk produces 98 KW at 5,600 rpm and 193 Nm at 4,000 rpm according to the brochure I have here. I don't know what the torque curve looks like, but it would probably be fairly similar to that in the SF rather than that of the series I SG (EJ-251) or the series II SG (EJ-253).

The 2.5L engine in the Heritage model produced 115 KW at 5,600 rpm and 221 Nm at 4,000 rpm according to the brochure. I'm not sure which of the various EJ-25x engines this was.
 
Sorry RB, one of the first things they teach in mech eng is horsepower for acceleration, torque for towing...
 
Perhaps they need to get it right then? ... :poke: :rotfl:

Check out why a steam locomotive spins its wheels when accelerating from a standstill. It isn't because of the horsepower.

The reason why "diesel" locomotives are (mostly?) diesel electric is that an electric motor develops its maximum torque at zero revs, as does a steam engine.
 
The perfect example is a motorbike compared to a tractor:

The bike has high HP, low torque. Fast acceleration, cant tow for jack!

Tractor has low HP, high torque. Can't accelerate but can tow a house!

Please don't argue RB, this is a basic tenant learned in the first lesson. If you wish to disagree, you will be disagreeing with every engineer everywhere in the world, everyone from car designers to the space shuttle :poke:

( we should also not clog up jf1sf5's thread, please move this to a new thread, I'm sure there are many others confused about this too)
 
I thought power was how fast an engine can 'speed up' for a given amount of load. And torque is how much load it can push for a given acceleration. Pretty crappy explanation but thats how I sorta see it in my head.

If torque equaled acceleration a 4cyl 500nm holden colorado would be as fast as an ss v8 :lol:
 
I looked in the engine bay and couldn't find any horses, so it must be all torque :lol:
 
Ratbag the ej22 is nothing like an ej20. Have you actually driven any of these cars or engines that you always compare. Comparing on paper is nothing like real world experience. I wouldn't say my Forester is much faster with its 2.5 but the torque has changed thr car. Again its no performance car but goes ok. I still find it lacking in some situations but thats because its still a 4 cylindsr that is naturally aspirated.
 
The perfect example is a motorbike compared to a tractor:

The bike has high HP, low torque. Fast acceleration, cant tow for jack!

Depends on the bike, and its motor ...

Tractor has low HP, high torque. Can't accelerate but can tow a house!

Actually, most tractors have very (relatively speaaking) low horsepower figures, but the figures quoted for them are drawbar horsepower, which is almost directly related to torque for any given engine.

e.g. The big tractors that we had on one of our properties had a 90 HP, 3 cylinder GM diesel in it. It accelerated at a huge rate, but could only reach a very low speed because of its enormously low gearing.

Similarly, motorcycles have a very narrow torque and power band, but have gearing and mass that matches this to produce very high acceleration and top speed in any gear.

Please don't argue RB, this is a basic tenant learned in the first lesson. If you wish to disagree, you will be disagreeing with every engineer everywhere in the world, everyone from car designers to the space shuttle :poke:

Generally quite dishonestly ... :lol:, which is why the definition of "horsepower" used in the motor vehicle industry has changed so dramatically over the last 40 years - the latest change being in 2005 ... It seems that "... every engineer everywhere in the world ... " took a very long time to come to any kind of agreement about the subject ... :poke: :lildevil: ... specially with their marketing departments ... :puke:.

Some conversion formulae here, for example. It is a tricky subject when one gets down to the nitty-gritty, but my statement is correct as a rule of thumb (heuristic).

Two identical vehicles can be posited, one of which has far more torque and the same mass, but with the same maximum power. The car with the greater torque will accelerate far faster, but they will both have the same top speed. If both have the same torque, but one has far lower power at the same rev point, both will accelerate equally fast (up to a point ... ), but the one with the lower power will have a proportionately lower top speed.

This example can be shown to be (relatively) true for all the permutations and combinations of mass, power and torque, with all other significant, non-random variables (mass, gearing, frontal area, rolling resistance, etc) being held constant. Gearing also has a major impact on any given variable set.

An added wrinkle in this is the rev range over which a given engine develops its usable torque and power.

A car's maximum speed is reached at the point where all these variables are just equal in effect to the maximum power of the engine, assuming that this maximum speed is not limited by gearing, or by other means (ECU programming, for example).

e.g. my SG Fox with its stock LR is speed limited by gearing in 5th/LR to around 188 kmh. It is also speed limited by the ECU programming in 5th/HR to about 198 kmh. Its theoretical top speed is a function of its gearing and the revs at which it develops its maximum power, or the point at which the variables mentioned above equal the power produced at the revs at which it reaches its maximum velocity. I understand that this maximum speed is around 212 kmh from a bloke in the US who had his ECU re-tuned to remove the artificial speed limiting program variable.

( we should also not clog up jf1sf5's thread, please move this to a new thread, I'm sure there are many others confused about this too)

Done. Quite correct :iconwink: :ebiggrin: :cool:.
 
Gidday Taza

Ratbag those ej22 figures are the phase I motor. Phase II has more kw n tq with tq at lower rpm.
They are ej25d figures too, not ej251.

Subaru aren't renowned for putting dates and model numbers on their brochures, mate ... :iconwink:.

It is for the year when the only engines offered in the Liberty were 2.2L (LX and GX) and 2.5L (Heritage, auto; and RX, 5MT and 4EAT). All the manual wagons were a 5MT/DR box, the sedans were all single range. The 2.5L donks with the 5MT all had a higher 5th gear ratio than the 2.2L equipped ones.

Those figures might help someone with more knowledge of this model range to explicitly identify which year the brochure is from ... :poke:
 
G'day again Taza

Ratbag the ej22 is nothing like an ej20. Have you actually driven any of these cars or engines that you always compare. Comparing on paper is nothing like real world experience.

Mostly not. And I agree that paper figures don't show anything like the whole or true story. That's why I have stressed how important the shape of the torque curve is, not just the maximum figure it gets to for 55 revs ... My Morris 1100 had a torque curve (if one can call it that ... ) that looked like an inverted Olympic ski jump ... It could barely get out of its own way below 4,000 rpm!

However, I have driven a huge variety of cars over my life, and have always had an interest in how their individual performance related to their paper figures, and other factors. This does give me a baseline of experience to work from.

According to the headline figures, the series I SG and series II SG don't get a huge increase in torque over the SF engine, but the shape of the torque curves tells a very different story. Ditto when comparing the EJ-251 and the EJ-253. The headline figure for the EJ-253 is actually slightly less than that of the EJ-251 (USA figures), but the shape of the torque curve makes it a far more tractable engine, and makes the car far more responsive and faster at pretty well all speeds, in any gear.

The broad, flat torque curve gives the EJ-253 greatly improved tractability in all the circumstances where I have driven both it and the EJ-251 (all on-road experience). Chalk and cheese.

I wouldn't say my Forester is much faster with its 2.5 but the torque has changed thr car. Again its no performance car but goes ok. I still find it lacking in some situations but thats because its still a 4 cylindsr that is naturally aspirated.

Of course the torque and torque curve will change the way the car drives, sometimes dramatically. You have reported on many of the differences that you have observed with your car from changing the engine, tyres, lift, gearbox, etc. This is precisely what I am talking about.

A 2.5L four cylinder is about as big a capacity as there has ever been in any 4 cylinder modern car. e.g. the series II is not "fast", but it sure as heck isn't "slow" either ... The broad, flat torque curve gives it greatly improved tractability in all the circumstances where I have driven both (all on-road experience). It sure doesn't run out of steam over 100 kmh, for example. Quite the contrary. As my SWMBO says "It's very easy to go fast in this car ... " (about her SH).
 
Torque is proportional to power divided by revs. (e.g. Torque (N.m) = 9.5 X Power (KW) / revs (rpm)). Torque and power are similar things. The reason people think of engines with high torque as being better for acceleration, is due to them having more GO in lower rpm which is where they accelerate from.

Bikes accelerate quick with little torque partially because they are light, but mostly because their riders rev them out more.

Coming from an engineering student.
 
Gidday Red

That's an interesting formula. I haven't seen it before, but it makes sense at a logical level. Does it hold true for all engines; or just engines of a particular type/technology? I'm thinking in terms of diesel/petrol, N/A vs turbo, old technology vs new technology.

I can't see it holding true for electric motors or steam engines that develop their maximum torque at zero revs, yet still have a "developed" power figure.

What you have said highlights the essence of what I have said, which is that the flatter torque curve always wins, all other things being equal (they almost never are ... ).

In the olden days, it is what gave thumping great American V8s their effortless power (also various V12s, straight 8s, long stroke straight 6s, straight 12s and straight 16s ... ).

However, these days, technology is King. Look at the differences between the torque curves of the various 2.457L engines made by Subaru, as just one example. The EJ-253 has a torque curve that's flatter than that of any V8 torque curve, even if it hasn't got the absolute torque figures of those bigger engines. This all comes down to the technology.

I have noticed subtle differences between the EJ-253 in SWMBO's series I SH and the one in my series II SG. I have never seen a torque curve for that last of the EJ-253 engines, but I would bet the family 'jewels' that it is flatter and broader again than that of the EJ-253 in my car.
 
Holds true on any engine. Just a law of physics type of thing. Made by rearranging other equations. For the electric motor example, using torque ~ power/revs, you'll have a figure for power at nearly 0 KW divided by a tiny number, very close to 0, for the revs when it initially takes off. You'll then get a very large number for torque, due to having a number divided by a tiny number.
 
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G'day again Red

How does this formula deal with different engine capacities and their different power/torque relationships?

Another question that has occurred to me (I'm not thinking very fast or clearly today ... ), how does this formula account for torque differences and more specifically torque curve differences between essentially similar engines?

For example, the EJ-251 and EJ-253 engines. These engines have very different torque characteristics at the limits (e.g. At say 1200 and 6000 rpm), while having essentially the same maximum torque and power, with all but identical basic engine design and implementation, with the exception of the heads, camshafts, inlet and exhaust manifolds, etc.

It seems that there must be some other variables in order for this equation to adequately explain these differences.

Just a few thoughts. I am very interested in this aspect of engine design and implementation, in case no one had noticed ... :lol:.
 
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