Excessive All Terrain Tire Wear--Again...

MiddleAgeSubie

Forum Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
990
Location
AZ
Car Year
2018 / 2008
Car Model
4Runner / Tribeca
Transmission
5EAT
[FONT=&quot]kay, so I am having another tire wear problem—and this time it is a lot worse than the first. Here is the brief tire history of my car.
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[FONT=&quot]2,000 miles: 225-60-17 Geolander AT-S replace the stock Contis.
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[FONT=&quot]15,000 or so miles: Primitive 0.5” spacers installed, alignment done by dealer. At this point tires are wearing at a rate indicating they should last [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 30-35,000 (to 4/32nds). That is a bit fast, but not too bad.
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[FONT=&quot]21,000 miles: Tires are wearing at the same rate, maybe a bit faster, EXCEPT [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the OUTER EDGES, which are now almost bald. I could never figure [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] out if the edges issue happened before or after the spacers and alignment [/FONT][FONT=&quot]at 15,000. Perhaps the spacers “settled” after a little, causing [FONT=&quot]m[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]isalignment?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]21,500 miles: stock sized tires replaced due to worn out outer edges, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]225-65-17 Geolander AT-S bought from and installed by dealer. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Alignment checks fine. Thread is 12/32. Now things turn ugly.
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[FONT=&quot]25,000 miles: I measure the thread and I am FAR from happy—9.5 to 10/32. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I take the car for a free alignment at a local tire chain that I have used [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] before. Totally misaligned. Alignment done by them. [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]25,000 miles: go for an oil change and tire rotation to my dealer and service [/FONT][FONT=&quot]guy. He vows to try and get anything he can from Yokohama should tires [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] keep wearing at this outrageous rate. But Yokohama would do nothing [/FONT][FONT=&quot]until tires go down to 4/32 (which may be next year!). [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]I drive normally, even conservatively. For example, although some of the trails I have done are very, very tough on the brakes of a vehicle that lacks low range, my brakes are on pace to last 70-75,000 miles. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]The car has suffered no hits on trail or on road though it has been driven through a lot of rough terrain that rarely sees Subarus. Still, no more than about 300 miles of 4wd HC roads and about 1,000 miles of easy trails and well-maintained unpaved roads: that is total for the two sets over a year![/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]My original Geolander set was wearing at pretty much the same rate as the Toyo AT on my B9. Not great but acceptable. However, my current set is down 2.5/32nds in less than 4,000 miles. I surely do not feel like replacing tires every year! [/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]What is going on? Are rougher trails constantly throwing my alignment off? [/FONT]
 
Have they given you a print out of the alignment specs?

Outer tire wear is almost always positive camber.
 
Gidday MAS

That doesn't sound good to me :(.

What STilson said +1.

Wear on only the outer edges tends to indicate serious toe-in errors in the alignment (conversely, wear on only the inner edge/s tends to indicate serious toe-out alignment error/s). Bad camber errors can also cause these types of wear patterns.

Is this for both front and rear tyres?
Or only the fronts?

Wear on both inner and outer edges indicates under-inflation.
Centre tread wear indicates over-inflation.
Oval wear patches indicates tyres that are badly out of balance (pretty rare, these days).

What tyre pressures are you running?
 
Balljoints, tie rod ends, rack ends, maybe lower control arm bushes, wheel bearings.... your alignment means precisely zero if any of these are worn. Thats the reason its always out of spec. each time they do it whatever is worn is in a different spot. balljoints will NOT have play when jacked up, they get pulled tight when jacked up. this fooled me for about 4-5 months of poor tyre weaf and numerous wheel alignments.

that your tyre wear is getting worse suggest a progressive generation which also aupports something mechanical over just alignment.
 
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my solution: new balljoints, tie rods, rack ends. will cost less than the price of 1 tyre and give peace of mind. they are so very, very cheap considering the role they play. maybe do the lca's, if not loosened when installing lift blocks and tightened with the car on the fround they can tear. then get it aligned at a pro suspension shop, tyre places are ****. I worked at 1 in particular and the machine hadn't been calibrated in years and that is the norm, not the exception.
 
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Thanks for the replies. The outer wear was an issue on the previous set only. Now the new set as a whole is wearing too fast.

Pressures have been fine and closely monitored.

The shop that checked the alignment at the time they installed the new tires was my Subaru dealer. They also looked at everything "under microscope" and said everything is fine. Unfortunately, they cannot just check alignment for free, w/o anything else. So, after 4,000 mi I went to a local chain I have used before. They found the alignment to be well off. I will go back after my next trip (if any until spring) or 1,000 mi, whichever occurs first, just to check.

Readings:

LF toe 0.55 specified range -0.08 0.17
RF toe 0.48
Lrear toe 0.57 specified range -0.04 to 0.21
Rrear toe 0.40
Front total toe 1.04 range -0.17 0.33
Rear total toe 0.96 range -0.08 0.42

Comment: "front and rear toe toed way in" Nothing bent.
 
Our cars are very, very sensitive to alignment issues.

The figures that you have quoted are so far out it would easily account for the wear as observed.

What Venom has said is also logically correct, and the alignment figures appear to show him to have correctly identified that the people who installed your lift blocks apparently did not do this properly; causing the alignment issues. There is probable cause, effect and outcome explained. I agree with him that the components he has mentioned should be carefully checked, even if you decide not to replace them if they appear to be OK.

Did the final alignment get all your wheels pointing the right way, and within the specified tolerances?

Roo1 ('93 Impreza) only had one wheel aligned in its entire 18 years and 236K Kms lifetime, and that was only marginally out (the tyre place checked all four, but the agreement was to charge me only for any that were out. I have been going to them for a long time ... :iconwink:).

When I bought Roo2, it handled like a canal barge.
It would pull during the last few metres of braking to a standstill, often markedly. It was unstable in a lane on a highway grade road surface. Cornering was OK, but not rock solid stable and predictable like Roo1.

Now, I didn't expect it to be the same as Roo1. After all, it is a heavier and considerably more powerful car, with different dynamics and a somewhat higher centre of gravity. However, I didn't think it would be as different/bad as it was.

Since the tyres were approaching the end of their useful life, and I could see them wearing out before my eyes (Pirellis have always done this latter, ever since my youth ... Handle well - last for about five minutes ... :(), I took them off and used them for my trailer, where they will last forever, as trailer tyres tend to do ... :iconwink: :lol:.

With the new Michelin XM2 tyres came a four wheel alignment, and a check for chassis/frame straightness in all directions (part of the deal ... :ebiggrin:). The frame came up perfect, but all four wheels were out of alignment. They were all within the specified tolerances, but all pointing in different directions - hence the instability that was particularly noticeable even when cornering, braking and driving in a straight line on a flat, smooth road.

After fitting the new tyres and the alignment issues had been fixed, Roo2 drove (and continues to drive) like a different, new car. It will never handle like my Impreza, because of the differences in height, etc, but it is close enough. It is now predictable, doesn't wander and doesn't pull when braking.

Remember that all of this was caused by the wheel alignment being within spec, but with each wheel pointing in a slightly different direction ...
Sensitive little buggers ... :poke:
 
If the balljoints cannot be checked when the car is up then they may be something to look at.

But, again, my dealer had the car for a week over the summer while waiting for a transmission harness and in the meantime I had them check everything relating to suspension and wheels. At the end, they put the new tires and checked the alignment.

Yet, 4,000 mi later it is awfully off. True, that included some rougher terrain, but nothing extraordinary.

The fact that the issue is the same on all four does suggest a common cause though. Hmm...another stop at my dealer. Good thing that my service guy is now at the closest dealer, just 1 mile away, and on my way to anywhere....
 
Can you get some photos? Close up of the tread, front on, from the side.

Run your hand over the tyres, is it smoother in one direction and rougher/catches in the other?

You can't check the balljoints without removing the hub assembly off them if you have a lift. The Subaru dealer could have it for a year and i'd be pretty certain they wouldn't have done that just to check them (it's a pain in the backside), only if it was incidentally in the process of removing them for some other reason, like changing a wheel bearing. Still, they're not suspension specialists and most mechanics don't have that knowledge either, I wouldn't trust a Subaru dealer (or most mechanics) and we can only speculate.

Really no replacement for an experience, knowledgeable suspension shop. Worth the extra $$$ they charge to.
 
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I will try to post pics tomorrow (It is almost midnight now here).
 
MiddleAgeSubie said:
Thanks for the replies. The outer wear was an issue on the previous set only. Now the new set as a whole is wearing too fast.

Pressures have been fine and closely monitored.

The shop that checked the alignment at the time they installed the new tires was my Subaru dealer. They also looked at everything "under microscope" and said everything is fine. Unfortunately, they cannot just check alignment for free, w/o anything else. So, after 4,000 mi I went to a local chain I have used before. They found the alignment to be well off. I will go back after my next trip (if any until spring) or 1,000 mi, whichever occurs first, just to check.

Readings:

LF toe 0.55 specified range -0.08 0.17
RF toe 0.48
Lrear toe 0.57 specified range -0.04 to 0.21
Rrear toe 0.40
Front total toe 1.04 range -0.17 0.33
Rear total toe 0.96 range -0.08 0.42

Comment: "front and rear toe toed way in" Nothing bent.
Click to expand...

Are these reading before or after you got wheel alignment done by independent shop? That to me is too much toe-out. I believe you can ask them to do some negative camber to compensate outer wear. Subaru cars when turn give you massive positive camber, worst when you have some lift. Make sure they give you the complete print out for the job not some notes on the piece of paper. I knew someone who would adjust everything perfectly when they lose, print out then tighten up (very easy to stuff up at this point if you are not careful).

Cheers
 
Ok, here are some pics.
First-currently front driver, formerly rear.
Second-currently front pax, formerly rear.

The other two are the current rear tires, formerly front.

Tires were rotated yesterday.
 
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Gidday MAS

Is there any sign of "feathering" when you run your hand around the edge of the tyres, as V asked before? i.e. if your run your hand around both the tyre edges of each tyre, is there any kind of lip on the outer edges in one direction but not the other?
 
Ratbag said:
Gidday MAS

Is there any sign of "feathering" when you run your hand around the edge of the tyres, as V asked before? i.e. if your run your hand around both the tyre edges of each tyre, is there any kind of lip on the outer edges in one direction but not the other?
Click to expand...

I think that V's suggestion does help. The outer edges seem to be wearing a bit faster again, which actually is a good thing--because I now have a hypothesis that, if verified, would lead to an easy solution.

I had left the car at the dealer for awhile because I had to travel and he had to do a few things on it. My service guy, who has been so helpful since I started modding the car, was part skeptical that an alignment check was needed, part concerned with how to do it w/o making me pay for it since dealers do not offer free checks. Upon my return, I asked about the alignment. I felt he made it up when he said that they had checked it--I know people and it seemed to me that his facial expression meant "oh G, I forgot about THAT." I even thought of checking elsewhere but we had a day or two to get ready for vacation so that idea never materialized. Then I forgot about the episode.

If the above hypothesis is true, then there is a chance that the alignment that was done now will suffice. I will check in 1,000 mi. If wear and alignment are ok, I will check again in 2,000 mi. Hopefully, it turns out to be that simple.

However, none of the above explains why the alignment was off on all four tires to pretty much the same degree...could have the dealer messed up? Is it possible that the alignment went off when the spacers "settled?"
 
last alignment possibly done with alignment machine out of calibration = consistent error over all 4 tyres?
 
Thanks, Venom.

I hope it is something silly like that. It was a Subaru dealer, but who knows.
 
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