Meryla State Forest

Well done indeed.

Sometimes very naughty locals plant stuff in bog holes to cause damage intentionally, old engine blocks are a favourite! :madred:
 
That's awesome Rally!


And it really shows what can be done on roadies with a locker - if the rear was open you'd be stuffed in that!


Cheers

Bennie


(PS: I claim to be the third viewer of this video!!)
 
Meryla State Forest October long weekend 2018

Same track, same day, same lines, same result. With or without traction control, it shows that tyres off road are far less important than good diffs. Here, once again, the car with road tyres and a diff locker made it look easy while the BF Goodrich K02 equipped car struggled or failed to make it up.


https://youtu.be/r2s5J0jwGiQ
 
If only a DCCD and rear locker (and LS front dif) set up was the price of a set of K02s.

Or even 2 sets of K02s..
 
Rally


What you have said is true but isn't it logical to put better tyres on as a first choice for an off-road performance improvement rather than start with a very expensive and exotic modification?
 
good video. and looks like that turbo doesnt help much in low revs there. that XT looks like its doing what my car would do in that situation, some wheel spin some engine cutting. dissconected sway bars might help there for some more grip . and low psi too. like rly low on those Ko2 like 0.8 bar or something.
and for comparison its one word locker. put locker in any car and it will go better. just weld rear diff and it would do similar thing there i guess.
but in the end XT made it ..yay !! its more interesting to see how it find right line and made it in end.
 
Point is that tyres make only a minor difference to off road ability compared to diffs. By having better diffs with good road tyres you have a more capable car on road and more capable off road. Win win.

Both cars were turbos. Both cars were aired down. A welded diff would be as effective off road as a locker, until something broke. And a nightmare on road. Yes the SH made it up, more due to the driver than anything else. And not without cutting up the track even more.
 
well offroaders and overlanders would disagree with you about tires... for short distance maybe its doesnt matter . or for light track like those.
but does that turbo do anything on those low revs ? is it even working there ? you need to rev more for it to kick no ?
 
I do agree with Rally. It is a fact that you will go further with a diff lock and bald tires than with agressive tires and an open diff.

Having a diff lock doesnt mean that having propper AT tires as well is a waste of money though !
 
well XT didint had just open diff. heavy 4wd car with open diffs wont go anywhere at all.
and money decides all ... for some they matter more then for others ...
 
Point is that tyres make only a minor difference to off road ability compared to diffs. By having better diffs with good road tyres you have a more capable car on road and more capable off road. Win win.

Both cars were turbos. Both cars were aired down. A welded diff would be as effective off road as a locker, until something broke. And a nightmare on road. Yes the SH made it up, more due to the driver than anything else. And not without cutting up the track even more.

I'd love to have a locked diff but I don't think you've proven your point about tyres. On the dry, loose surface you were on the tyre compound would be more significant than the tread pattern. What you need is two cars, identical bar for different tyres to do the same run. Then you would have a valid comparison of tyres.

I would be very surprised if your road tyres would get you the same distance as KO2 tyres uphill in muddy conditions given all other things were equal.

In most dry circumstances in Australia tread pattern makes only a small amount of difference. On sand, there is no doubt that road tyres work better. The true advantage of AT tyres is in their construction and the benefits that offers in rough conditions.

Firstly, additional sidewall strength reduces the risk of damage from sharp rocks, roots etc. I have personal experience of tearing a great chunk out of the sidewall of a road tyre while competing in a rally. An instant flat is the result and that's the last thing you want on a steep climb. It's often very difficult to get the car somewhere a wheel can be changed when one tyre is flat. Having it happen at speed is another story.

Secondly, most people who fit AT tyres go for a higher profile that allows running greatly reduced pressures without losing so much ground clearance as with standard road tyres.

Thirdly, but not last by any means is the ability to run AT tyres at reduced pressure for extended periods of time with less risk of overheating the sidewalls resulting in tyre failure.

I do some beach driving and some bush driving. Although road tyres would work as well, or better on the sand for short runs, They have distinct advantages on other terrain or over long distances at low pressure. In my opinion, a set of good AT tyres is a much more practical investment than a locker in the first instance. ( I still want a locker, but AT tyres come first because I can afford them and they don't cost more than my car is worth)
 
You assume all all terrain tyres are equal when they aren’t. Sure. The ko2 has stiff sidewalls but many other all terrains don’t and have thinner sidewalls than my road tyres. Maybe the KO2 will go a bit further though you will have to put up with a lot less grip elsewhere for the tiny numbers of opportunities to use that slight advantage. Yes, the taller tyre has advantages yet these work against you on bitumen where most cars are found, even ones considered an off road car.

The video clearly shows that diffs are more important than tyres. For it to be otherwise, then the SH would not have struggled
 
You assume all all terrain tyres are equal when they aren’t. Sure. The ko2 has stiff sidewalls but many other all terrains don’t and have thinner sidewalls than my road tyres. Maybe the KO2 will go a bit further though you will have to put up with a lot less grip elsewhere for the tiny numbers of opportunities to use that slight advantage. Yes, the taller tyre has advantages yet these work against you on bitumen where most cars are found, even ones considered an off road car.

The video clearly shows that diffs are more important than tyres. For it to be otherwise, then the SH would not have struggled

What the video actually shows is that an SG turbo manual with road tyres and diff lock will climb better on loose gravel and rocky terrain that a stock SH turbo auto with KO2 AT tyres.

If you want to try to prove that a diff lock is more important than AT tyres you need to have two sets of tyres for your car and run the same section of track on the same day using the same lines at the same speed. Even then you can't prove that the diff is more important than the tyres. You can only prove which combination gave you the best performance under that specific set of circumstances.

I have no doubt that you will be able to prove that a car with a locked diff and road tyres will get you further than the same car on AT tyres and no locked diff.

I would be surprised if you couldn't also prove, using the appropriate scientific method, that a locked diff is superior to VDC.

I am not arguing that AT tyres are more important than a locked diff. I am making the point that if someone is setting up a car for off-road use it is more logical, as one of the first steps, to spend a small amount of money on AT tyres ( the cost is minimal if you have to fit a new set of tyres anyway) than a large amount of money on a locked diff.

My car spends 90% of its time on bitumen and my good quality AT tyres with tough sidewalls don't perform as well as my old road tyres and I knew that would be the case. AT tyres, like nearly every other modification you can make for off-roading will be a compromise between performance off-road and performance on-road. As long as you know what to expect it isn't a problem. I couldn't justify spending more than my car is worth on a modification for off-roading when my AT tyres were actually cheaper than good quality road tyres.
 
I think pretty much everyone other than Rally agrees :lol::poke:
 
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actually street tires are pretty good on sand or sandish road. on stones they can be not bad too. and street tires wont dig up down so much as more agressive tires would. important thing is what everyone finds work best for him and thats fine. Rally just dont need rally tires at all.
 
I think pretty much everyone other than Rally agrees :lol::poke:

I understand where Rally is coming from. The locker has been his project and is probably the most significant development of an off-road aid that I've ever heard of in Subaruland. I'd love to have one in my car too. If I win Lotto, I'll be contacting Rally to see how I go about getting one. :)

I acknowledge that he has also demonstrated that, under some conditions, road tyres are as good, or better than AT tyres.

I believe, however, that good quality AT tyres are the best all-round compromise as the first improvement for a Subaru when more than gentle off-road trips are planned through a wide variety of environments, a locker is something that could be considered after tyres, underbody protection, suspension modifications etc. have been done.

Credit where credit is due: Rally has done all of this except for the AT tyres.
 
Imagine places Rally could go with ko2 tires and lockers, more lift and cut bumpers. Lol but if he dont need it he dont need it. Stuborn people like myself knows best.
 
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