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  #31  
Old 10th November 2015, 01:25 AM
MiddleAgeSubie MiddleAgeSubie is online now
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That was a rhetorical question...
...
I purposefully avoid the term "off-road" in order to avoid certain associations...even on the forums. If I cared for the motorized scaling of boulders, I would not have bought a Subaru....
...
Basically, you agree with me, "...I would not consider any of the un-modified Subaru vehicles I mentioned as being suitable for any kind of off-road use...." But you still idealize the Forester. The 2014+ base Forester is either 1/MT without LR or 2/CVT without x-mode or paddle shifters. Your base 2015+ OB at least has CVT with x-mode and is thus more capable, approach angle notwithstanding.
...
The case of the Subie in the hot tub is irrelevant. That's hardly a road-worthy vehicle. Or a vehicle worth anything to anyone other than the owner.
...
I think your misunderstanding stems from this:

"It can be defined in whatever way a person wishes. If this is done specifically to exclude certain vehicles on some arbitrary basis,..."

Well, I am not talking PERSONS. I am talking MARKET. The MARKET demands #LookTough and, probably to a lesser extent, #GoWheeling.

Subaru, the Trailhawk versions of the Cherokee and the Renegade, and even the Grand Cherokee Overland 4x4, which will be far better on trail than the most modified Subaru, DO NOT PLAY in what the MARKET AS A WHOLE considers the OFF-ROAD category, whether we talk those who want capability or those who are happy with looks.

Hope it is clear now
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That Bushmaster vehicle is too large and too heavy.

The perfect vehicle for US off-roading is the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. A fully stock version with a skilled driver will handle all difficult and many hard-core trails. Nothing compares when it comes to crawl ratio, front and rear lockers plus BLD (like Subaru's VDC), articulation, angles, quick sway bar disconnects, structure, you name it, all comes stock. Because it excels off-road, it also is considered by the most authoritative magazine, Consumer Reports, the worst vehicle sold in the US when it comes to on-road.

And this is where Subaru or the off-road trims of Jeeps other than Wrangler come into play.

Everything is a compromise. What Subaru could do better is not to deprive us unnecessarily of little, but important things.

It does not seem to me that any of what you say disproves my points
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  #32  
Old 10th November 2015, 01:59 AM
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The Jeeps you mention are useless off-road as well, AFAICS. Their roll angles in all directions make them unsafe in any off-road situation, and their total lack of body integrity means that their occupants have little chance of survival in all but the most benign of circumstances.

I have spent several hours watching videos that demonstrate this, over and over and over again. Google "epic jeep rollover" to see what I mean. They roll backwards, forwards, sideways, rear quarter and front quarter apparently with equal ease.

FYI, I do not idealise the Forester in any way.

Is it fit for my purposes? Yes. Specially with UHF radio, Spot EPIRB/tracker, cargo barrier, light bar, variable rate heavy duty rear springs/struts, sump guard, roo bar and tow bar. Mine will soon be fitted with a 1" strut lift to return my suspension height to the maximum of the OEM standard range. These items make the car ideal for my purposes, while still allowing me to safely rack up 1,000 kms in a day towing a camper trailer with ease (at 68 y.o. ... ).

I have driven very long distances in my LC, with a tonne in the back and towing a 2 tonne horse float. That was in my 20s ... It was bloody uncomfortable even then! One needed to drive within the vehicle's limitations (as with every vehicle), which were many. I can tow my CT with my Forester sitting on 100-120 kmh all day. I have also towed this trailer up a 30 deg muddy track without any hassles on several occasions.

The Forester is safe, comfortable and pleasant to drive in all situations that I intend to use it.

I think I can safely say that no Jeep satisfies any of these criteria. If I wanted to go exploring for minerals here, I would choose a diesel SWB Landcruiser.

Maybe you do not understand what I want/need in a vehicle - suffice it to say that I have not the slightest desire to drive off-road "for thrills". I have always been 'purpose oriented', and my current vehicles are no exception to this general rule.

Your wants/needs may be different. That's fine. However do not make the mistake of thinking or believing that your wants and needs are universally sought out by all.

Feel very free to buy a Jeep of your choice if that is what suits your wants/needs. If given one, I would sell it ...
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  #33  
Old 10th November 2015, 02:18 AM
MiddleAgeSubie MiddleAgeSubie is online now
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Ugh.

We agree on pretty much everything. I am not sure where you get the idea that I want a Wrangler. As a third vehicle bought by someone else for me? Sure. But if I wanted a Jeep I would have bought one. If I could trust the Grand Cherokee and if I liked it otherwise, I might have bought its best trim. That's about it.

Those videos often recycle the same events and what they demonstrate is bad driving and bad ideas. The Wrangler Rubicon is far from rollover prone when properly driven and stock or properly modified. It is the readiest for off-road on the US market. No Defender here.

The difference is that I am talking market, not myself, while you talk about yourself, not the market....
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  #34  
Old 10th November 2015, 02:51 AM
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I learned many years ago not to trust marketers, or the market. I don't even trust my own professional colleagues as a group ...

I can only ever make decisions based on my personal wants and needs.
This approach does not allow me ethically or in practice to make decisions for others, or to dictate what their wants/needs might be.

One of the single biggest contributors to the massive drop in the road toll here in Oz was the introduction of design rules that dictate roll angles for passenger vehicles. It is only fairly recently that these have applied (in part) to truck-based vehicles such as "real" 4WD vehicles here in Oz.

It concerns me greatly that many families here buy these trucks, thinking them to be safe. They are not. Those rollover videos of the Jeep highlight just how unstable these kinds of vehicles are. This instability negatively impacts primary safety - such as evasive capability, braking, handling and cornering, among other commonplace events that occur in daily driving.

I am a relentess proponent of people enjoying their vehicles and pursuits in a safe and legal way, such that they do not put either themselves or others at unnecessary risk. The people who appear to be championing the kind of off-road use in those videos appear to be nothing other than hoons, hooligans and lunatics who have no idea about safety, either their own or that of others.

Last edited by Ratbag; 10th November 2015 at 04:04 AM. Reason: Grammar ...
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  #35  
Old 14th November 2015, 01:19 PM
MiddleAgeSubie MiddleAgeSubie is online now
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Let's not get that far off-topic.

Here are the top 10 AWDs under 25k as ranked by one of the major valuers in the US, a wonderful and most deserved sight :

1. Outback
2. Forester
3. Legacy
4. Impreza
5. XV
6. Renegade

http://www.kbb.com/car-reviews-and-n.../2000011746-1/
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  #36  
Old 14th November 2015, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgeSubie View Post
Let's not get that far off-topic.
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  #37  
Old 9th February 2017, 03:44 PM
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I considered the Trailhawk before buying my Forester. I never test drove it but just read up on it etc. I thought the internal colour scheme was a bit much (with the red etc) and from memory it couldn't be lifted. The reputation Jeep has regarding reliability didn't help at all. Also, the front recovery tow-hooks weren't allowed in Australia for some reason which seems a bit odd as they were passed to be allowed on the Cherokee Trailhawk.
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  #38  
Old 9th February 2017, 04:44 PM
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The new Compass will be available with the Trailhawk option. Looks much better and offroad capable than the older version.

http://www.jeep.com/en/reveal/
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  #39  
Old 9th February 2017, 06:00 PM
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That reads pretty well as does https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.dr...17-gsrhg6.html
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  #40  
Old 9th February 2017, 07:35 PM
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The only thing I would touch a Jeep with would be a wrecking ball. (my Son had a very bad experience with a brand new Wrangler that even broke down on the way home from the dealer! That was just the beginning of his woes. It's gone now thank heavens).
So very critical is "it will need to have lots of buyer appeal and absolute reassurance that the Jeep quality/reliability issues of old have been banished."
But, as usual, people will just buy it based on the adverts.
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