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  #11  
Old 7th November 2015, 08:49 PM
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In the first video that Tweak listed, I was very impressed with the Jeep's mud ploughing ability. Good stuff. Obviously has an excellent powertrain and power to ground transmission. Probably (hopefully) has respectable underbody protection as well.

Singularly unimpressed with the dead fog light on a brand new vehicle ...
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Old 7th November 2015, 09:56 PM
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My understanding is that the symmetrical AWD does not allow for a really good approach angle.

That and the fact that Subaru simply does not care for 4x4 trails.
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Old 7th November 2015, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgeSubie View Post
My understanding is that the symmetrical AWD does not allow for a really good approach angle.
That's a rather odd idea. How do you come to that conclusion MAS?

The approach angle on mine with the SubaXtreme front bar is about 23. The departure angle is limited by my tow bar rather than the body, but I have still only scraped this lightly once.

Both approach and departure angles on mine are governed by things other than the AWD system, which has zero impact AFAICS.

Quote:
That and the fact that Subaru simply does not care for 4x4 trails.
Subaru are marketing their vehicles as "off-road", so not sure what you mean.

It really surprises me that Subaru offer an OEM sump guard in the UK (!), but not in Oz. Now that's really weird!

It would be terrific if Subaru actually did support the off-road capabilities of our vehicles better. I cannot believe that they are incapable of doing this at a country/dealer level.

After all, how much would it cost FHI to engineer some basic skid plates for under sump, geabox and rear diff? No harder than getting Hayman Reese here to make "OEM" tow bars for them ...

Here in Oz we are very fortunate to have SubaXtreme making sump guards and front/rear off-road bumper replacements. Other countries are not so lucky.

I note that one of the Jeep links that Tweak posted shows the new one with a 0.8" factory lift. It would be nice to be able to specify these kinds of basic mods for our cars.
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Old 8th November 2015, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratbag View Post
That's a rather odd idea. How do you come to that conclusion MAS?

The approach angle on mine with the SubaXtreme front bar is about 23. The departure angle is limited by my tow bar rather than the body, but I have still only scraped this lightly once.

Both approach and departure angles on mine are governed by things other than the AWD system, which has zero impact AFAICS.



Subaru are marketing their vehicles as "off-road", so not sure what you mean.

It really surprises me that Subaru offer an OEM sump guard in the UK (!), but not in Oz. Now that's really weird!

It would be terrific if Subaru actually did support the off-road capabilities of our vehicles better. I cannot believe that they are incapable of doing this at a country/dealer level.
I think what MAS is getting at RE: the subaru AWD system and approach angles is, is that the design of Subaru's AWad system puts the front drive axles out of the transmission, which is behind the engine. As such, although the subaru engine is relatively short, doors-aft, it still rides in from of the drive a les, meaning the entire engine site in front of the axles, thus a long front nose by design of Subaru's symmetrical AWD system. Departure angle defies my understanding why it's so atrocious.

And copy that, when swapping the space-eating stock bumper and bumper cover for something like the awesomeness of SubaExtreme bumpers, sure you get a great approach angle. My tube bumper got me 31 deg approach angle, and my departure is bad beacause of the receiver (as with you). I'd like to fab a rear bumper with integrated receiver to get that up higher.

And, while subarus do decently off road, we, as that audience and professors of their capability off road, are honestly but a niche of the target audience. To some degrees, subaru has departed from us as the target to a more mainstreM target audience (as evidenced by their recent redesigns and marketing), while continuing to advertise as outdoorsy. The bikers, climbers, bikers, campers, etc. demand the need for confidence in leaving pavement, it's venturing to county and died roads, not so specifically "trails" and "tracks".

The majority of the target audience wants safety, efficiency (and while full time awd, subaru (compared to other ft awd rigs) is comparable to RWD rigs so safety is highly marketable for subarus along side with efficiency.

But yeah, I think subaru COULD do a bit more in their advertising, to promote what off road could mean, besides dirt roads and puddles. Articulation is still car like but roo's straight ground clearance (model specifically applicable) does a lot for beyond dirt road capability.




Aaaanyway, I hope this comes through and makes sense, considering it was entered on a tiny screen (aka phone. 😉
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Old 8th November 2015, 12:26 AM
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Oh, and those fog lights aren't broke . My parents' 2016 forester do that too. There's a circuit that turns on the fog light in the direction of the steering wheel, to aid in illumination. If the fogs are off, and one is driving straight but turns slightly (as for a lane change), or to turn the wheel (for maneuvering around a corner), the fog on that side turns on.

As such, I. The jeep video, when the passenger fog turns on then off, it's with the driver turning right the. Back straight.

And yeah, that thing would sadly but truly take a forester's cake off rad no problem. While it's a soft roared for sure, it still is a jeep, and I think is is trail rated at that (whatever that means in the jeep badging. Surely not the rubicon any more).

Anyhoo, that is all for now.

Just saying.
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Old 8th November 2015, 01:26 AM
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Thanks, Superu, for explaining the AA issue.

Subaru chose to have a good departure angle on the XV.

Ratbag, 23 deg approach angle is nothing. There is no way whatsoever to get over 30 w/o going into extremes like Superu or GrantWilson on the OB forum. And then you get the Wrangler which has over 40 in stock form! The best I can ever achieve on mine after more lift and the SubaX bumper will be 26-27.

Subaru is NOT marketed as an OFF road vehicle in its largest market. You need not look at the lack of full size spare, at the weak OEM battery, or the commercials. All you need to see is the only stock tire option. In the US, Subaru is marketed strictly as an all-weather vehicle great also for unpaved roads. The 4x4 trails are definitely not considered Subaru territory here by anybody, Subaru included.

In Australia, where maybe ultra-long but not technically challenging dirt roads are the name of the game, Subaru will do far better than in the US where "wheeling" does not mean going places as much as going over rocks for the sake of it.

Subaru is a completely irrelevant player in Europe, so frankly it does not really matter; few people will buy them either way considering that they are essentially a luxury product there.

If Subaru cared for off-road, they would have actually bothered improving the angles as much as possible as well as offered as an option a basic package (AT tires, full size spare, better battery, skid plates, reinforced rocker panels, and recovery points). In Australia, they gave you back the full size spare they tried to take from you because of push back, as far as I understand. But you still do not get anything else that is a typical feature of a 4x4. And again, maybe in Australia off-road is more of the overland variety than of the conquering of trails type.

There is no way one looks at anything Subaru does in the US and concludes that it has any off-road ambitions at all. All we get is simply a byproduct of all-weather ability. Plenty enough for dirt roads in bad condition. Far from enough, in stock form, for more than the occasional drive over a particularly Subaru-friendly 4WD HC road.
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Old 8th November 2015, 01:35 AM
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I also think that all of us who actually use our Subarus atypically have got into the brand somehow and then remained plugged in for whatever reason.

There is no way I look at vehicles with off-road ability as #1 concern and even consider a Subaru. Then, again, how many can afford a toy? No overall package beats a Subie.
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Old 8th November 2015, 01:49 AM
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Definitely marketed as off-road capable down here; just have a look a the local website: "Subaru Off-Road Vehicles
When you need to escape, theres nothing quite like heading off-road"

Have you actually driven any of our "ultra-long but not technically challenging dirt roads" ;-) Our outback roads tend to deliver on both counts. Our country is not all flat; we do have some hilly bits

"you still do not get anything else that is a typical feature of a 4x4" - how about hill descent control?
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Old 8th November 2015, 02:09 AM
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You will not hear Subaru say "off-road" here.

Hill descent control? Yes, now they have x-mode. This is nice, no doubt. But it is not low range. You can, of course, say that the categories are blurring tremendously. That is why I said that the pure breed 4x4s are almost extinct here.

If you look at the Discovery line of Rovers or at the new Cherokee and Renegade, you will see that electronics have taken over. However, you also see far better angles, proper tires, and so on.

To me, a vehicle is not meant for off-road unless 1/it is so marketed, which Subaru is not in the US and 2/covers the basics, which Subaru does not.

They probably have well understood that the hardcore 4x4 crowd is out of their reach, for a variety of reasons, and that the others really do not need much more than what Subaru offers.

Again, those like us, which is essentially people who need a good car and a good old LandCruiser, not a Wrangler, fall between the cracks. Unless one can afford a do-it-all-well LR4--and thus also a satellite phone!
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Old 8th November 2015, 02:35 AM
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MAS, I have driven my Subarus (even the low slung Impreza) places that I could not, or would not, safely drive my LWB 1968 Landcruiser deep well ute. It is hard these days to find a more basic and capable vehicle than the latter.

Equally, I have driven my '68 LC places which would have broken my Subarus beyond repair (ditto as regards my Subies vs my LC ... ). I don't even have to leave the Greater Melbourne metropolitan area to find such a place where my Suby managed and my LC would have been destroyed, and would quite possibly have killed me. Bunyip State Park is one such place. There are others.

Nor would I attempt to tow a two tonne tandem axle dual horse float behind any of my Subies ... Plain foolhardy to even attempt it.

ALL vehicles have vulnerabilities, strengths and weaknesses. It is the job of any competent driver to identify those S&Ws, and to drive the vehicle accordingly.

Many places I have driven, I would drive straight through the mess in my LC, where I would take the chicken run in my Subies. Taking the chicken run could well have been very dangerous in my LC (poor tip angles, weight, primitive suspension and steering); and taking the obstruction head on could be very dangerous or plain silly in my Subies (insufficient ground clearance, hang angles, approach departure angles, inadequate tyres, etc).

I hold a National Heavies licence (heavy truck driver's licence. I am licensed to drive almost anything, legally), so I am quite used to assessing what one should and should not do with regard to safety depending on the capabilities of the vehicle I am driving. It goes with the territory.

While the comparison between the Jeep and the XV is interesting, they are two very different vehicles. If I were to drive the Jeep on road how I routinely drive my Subaru, it would probably kill me eventually. I do far more driving on made roads, either tarmac or dirt than I do 'true' off-road driving. For me, that makes the Subaru a no-brain choice for safety, stability and sheer driving pleasure, whether on our 500 Km gibber plains, sand dunes, sand tracks mountain roads and tracks or highways and freeways ...

We can leave aside the fact that it is a hanging offence in most places in Oz to drive one's vehicle off a surveyed road (bush track, whatever - these also count as "roads" if they are marked on any kind of survey map as gazetted roads under the various Crown Lands Acts). The environment is protected here even if it isn't in a National Park or State Park. In some States, the offence is punishable by confiscation of one's vehicle, plus other penalties ...

Also, here in Oz, one's comprehensive insurance is usually void if one is not in very close proximity to a surveyed road.

I do not know where you get the idea that there are no challenging roads in Oz. Often quite major roads can be "technical" ... to use the American term. It is often the case that merely having one's vehicle survive in one piece while travelling from one end to the other is quite an achievement!

Just a few thoughts, FWIW .

[EDIT]

BTW, my LC had an approach angle of about 45 degrees and clearance under the centre of about 20-24 inches; less under the TC. I do understand the importance of these things ...

[End edit]

Last edited by Ratbag; 8th November 2015 at 02:50 AM. Reason: Obvious ...
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