OFFROADSUBARUS.COM

Go Back   OFFROADSUBARUS.COM > Technical Forums > Mods, Insurance, Local Compliance & you

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Unread 7th March 2012, 12:09 AM
dirtyRU's Avatar
dirtyRU dirtyRU is offline
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 1,342
dirtyRU is on a distinguished road
Default

Is all insurance out there based upon "agreed value"? Only time that is used out here is mostly on antique/classic cars/custom cars. Everything else is based on "actual cash value" where the condition/ accessories come into consideration.
__________________
My Forry almost swallowed a deer whole...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 7th March 2012, 12:52 AM
Ratbag's Avatar
Ratbag Ratbag is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bayside, Melbourne, Vic
Year: MY06, MY10
Model: Forester SG & SH
Transmission: 5MT/DR & 4EAT Sports
Posts: 6,219
Ratbag is on a distinguished road
Default

Gidday Matt

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyRU View Post
Is all insurance out there based upon "agreed value"? Only time that is used out here is mostly on antique/classic cars/custom cars. Everything else is based on "actual cash value" where the condition/ accessories come into consideration.
Two valuation systems in use here - "agreed sum" and "market value".
Usually, agreed sum is only available for cars under about ten years old.
Market value is usually (much) less than replacement value, as it usually excludes stamp duty; registration fees; dealer insurance costs; goods and services tax, etc, etc.

There is also usually an option to have only third-party property damage insurance ("TPPD") that doesn't cover you at all, only anyone you happen to run into ...

Personal injury arising from motor vehicle accidents are covered by a statutory system run by the various State governments - part of the cost of registering one's vehicle/s.

Of course, the details are a tad more complex than my simplistic explanation here ...

In the case of my own "new" Forester, the agreed sum is made up of the purchase price of the vehicle (which includes all those excluded items ... ), PLUS the valuation agreed between the insurer and myself as to the value added by the extras fitted to the car, even if I originally purchased many of them with the vehicle.

This is the insurer's way of acknowledging (accounting for) that I got a really good deal, as I paid nearly $4,000 less than the normal going rate for the vehicle I bought with most of those extras already on it.

IOW, if I were to insist that they honour the indemnity clause in the policy by providing me with a replacement for a write-off of my existing vehicle with a vehicle of similar age that was in very similar condition mechanically and cosmetically, with around the same mileage on it, they would have to pay about what they have agreed to insure it for. This keeps everyone honest, IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 7th March 2012, 06:34 AM
Ratbag's Avatar
Ratbag Ratbag is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bayside, Melbourne, Vic
Year: MY06, MY10
Model: Forester SG & SH
Transmission: 5MT/DR & 4EAT Sports
Posts: 6,219
Ratbag is on a distinguished road
Default

Gidday Spike

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeoo1 View Post
Good work mate! thanks heaps!

Wana help me get a better deal RB!?
Sorry mate. I saw your post earlier, then got sidetracked ...
After all, this is an Off Road forum ... .

I have a love/hate relationship with insurance companies. A bit like the Police, really. I am in favour of both, and support the work that the Police are there to do. I also understand that some people lie, cheat and steal; but, and it's a BIG BUT, that does NOT give either of them the right to treat us ALL as if we were criminals ...

If I can help with any insurance issues you might have, feel free to drop me a PM here. I will help if I can.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 7th March 2012, 06:55 AM
Ratbag's Avatar
Ratbag Ratbag is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bayside, Melbourne, Vic
Year: MY06, MY10
Model: Forester SG & SH
Transmission: 5MT/DR & 4EAT Sports
Posts: 6,219
Ratbag is on a distinguished road
Default

Gidday Mr T

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr turbo View Post
There's some great advice there Ratbag
Thanks mate. I should have learned something after all the mistakes I have made, in all the years I have been on this Planet. One of the things I have learned is not to be too trusting of insurance companies. This allows me to deal in a robust but completely honest way with them, right from the start.

Quote:
I remember on one occasion, with my insurance company, telling them about some of the mods & accessories etc that I had.

They told me that they couldn't fit them on the page (policy) & that I would have to decide which ones I wanted to keep & have covered & which ones I had to take off & not have covered

I politely told them that what they were saying was a load of & to make/add another page to the policy & cover all of them
And if they didn't, I would take my business & my fathers business elsewhere
On top of that, I would advise/tell all my friends & the 400-500 people I work with to take there business elsewhere aswell

They soon found a way to add another page, listing all of the mods & accessories that I had & demanded to have covered on my vehicle & covered them

Regards
Mr Turbo
Congratulations, and good on you for standing up to their stand-over tactics.
It is exactly what I am trying to communicate particularly to the younger/less experienced members here. You are not powerless. You can stand up for yourself. In doing so, you are also standing up for others who cannot. Always remain calm. Always be reasonable. Always try to see their point of view (it helps you to overcome it, LOL!). Always be civil.

When my PDA went for a swim recently, my broker offered, OFFERED mind you, to prosecute my case with the insurer for its replacement with the Blackberry. I am still undecided as to whether it is reasonable to expect my insurer to cover this, but my broker has made it absolutely clear, in writing, that the offer stands if I change my mind.

One long fight I had with my then insurer was that they had to provide a replacement vehicle for SWMBO when hers was damaged in a no-fault situation on her part. It took six months, but they paid for it while her car was being repaired. We do not have 'replacement vehicle' insurance, and if the accident is in any way our fault, we wear that. BUT they indemnify us against loss for which the accident is the proximate and reasonably foreseeable cause. Loss of the use of one's vehicle is pretty "reasonably foreseeable" IMFAO.

Ten years or so later, the Full Federal Court (IIRC) found against the industry for denying this indemnity to people, and validated my previously successfully argued case.

Always remember folks - you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar; but always be prepared to persist if your cause is just ...
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 2nd April 2012, 11:24 PM
Ratbag's Avatar
Ratbag Ratbag is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bayside, Melbourne, Vic
Year: MY06, MY10
Model: Forester SG & SH
Transmission: 5MT/DR & 4EAT Sports
Posts: 6,219
Ratbag is on a distinguished road
Default Update on insured value of Roo2

Gidday again folks

In some robust and detailed discussions with my insurer today, the "Agreed Value" of my vehicle plus extras is now 25.2% more than they were originally offering when the first renewal notice came out.

This is a very significant increase in the agreed value of over $5,000.

The agreed value is now some $6,250 more than I actually paid for the vehicle. Some of this increase is based on my insurer agreeing that I had " ... got a very good deal for a 2006 low-mileage Forester XS ... " (about $2,000 to $2,500 better than 'average') and the balance on the basis of the extras fitted.

In order to insure for this amount, my premium has also risen by 8.7%. Fair enough.

They agreed to this based on my detailed list of extras and equipment levels.

My argument basically consisted of the fact that Subaru introduced the concept of "Build your own" around this time. It appears that I have a mid-2006 XS with either the "Luxury Option Pack"; or a series of additional extras that constitute this; without the sunroof and leather seats.

AFAICT, the 6 stacker in-dash CD with 7 speakers and sub-woofer amp was always a very expensive optional extra here in Oz, whether one bought the luxury pack or not. Ditto the climate control a/c. It seems that one could play mix-n-match with the luxury pack options all over the place!

I have sent an email to the dealer who originally sold the vehicle new asking them for a copy of the order or dealer delivery form/s (with the name of the purchaser removed - I actually have that anyway!). I am yet to receive a reply, but early days yet.

So what exactly is insured with my vehicle?

Purchase price

PLUS:
  • Metallic paint
  • OEM towbar kit fitted
  • Side protection panels and under door sill trim
  • Floor mats
  • Fog light protectors
  • Sheepskin seat covers (front)
  • Alloy wheel lock nuts
  • Chipped entry and starter ignition key
  • Alloy spare wheel
  • OEM roof bars
  • Rola roof basket and attachment kit
  • Milford cargo restraint
  • Climate control a/c
  • In-dash 6 stacker CD/Radio with 7 speakers including sub-woofer.
Some of these items have been added by them to clarify what they are insuring (e.g. to my knowledge, one could not buy an MY06 XS without metallic paint; but I could be wrong about this. I have never seen one).

Many of these extras have been added in by them at new (replacement) cost, not at depreciated cost. My argument here was that it often costs as much for a s/h part as the original part cost historically. They accepted this argument without a fight.

They have also informed me that they are not concerned about my fitting 215/65 16" in lieu of the 215/60 16" standard tyres (to correct my speedo). They would not allow any increase in width of the tyres without that voiding my insurance (increased risk of aquaplaning is my guess).

I would have to get this in writing from them, of course.

I will also have to check with the RTA here as to the legality of this.

Just shows what can be achieved if you talk sensibly and factually to your insurer. The phone jockey had to get approval to insure for this value, as outside the maximum range, apparently.

So all up including all the extras, I paid about 46% of the replacement cost of a new equivalent at today's prices, and they have now insured the vehicle for 59% of that new value. This is consistent with the fact that it has done only about 100,000 kms and is only about 6 years old (5.75 yrs). This is around 1/3rd of the vehicle's economic lifespan in both cases.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 2nd April 2012, 11:30 PM
taza's Avatar
taza taza is offline
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,837
taza is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratbag View Post
Gidday again folks

In some robust and detailed discussions with my insurer today, the "Agreed Value" of my vehicle plus extras is now 25.2% more than they were originally offering when the first renewal notice came out.

This is a very significant increase in the agreed value of over $5,000.

The agreed value is now some $6,250 more than I actually paid for the vehicle. Some of this increase is based on my insurer agreeing that I had " ... got a very good deal for a 2006 low-mileage Forester XS ... " (about $2,000 to $2,500 better than 'average') and the balance on the basis of the extras fitted.

In order to insure for this amount, my premium has also risen by 8.7%. Fair enough.

They agreed to this based on my detailed list of extras and equipment levels.

My argument basically consisted of the fact that Subaru introduced the concept of "Build your own" around this time. It appears that I have a mid-2006 XS with either the "Luxury Option Pack"; or a series of additional extras that constitute this; without the sunroof and leather seats.

AFAICT, the 6 stacker in-dash CD with 7 speakers and sub-woofer amp was always a very expensive optional extra here in Oz, whether one bought the luxury pack or not. Ditto the climate control a/c. It seems that one could play mix-n-match with the luxury pack options all over the place!

I have sent an email to the dealer who originally sold the vehicle new asking them for a copy of the order or dealer delivery form/s (with the name of the purchaser removed - I actually have that anyway!). I am yet to receive a reply, but early days yet.

So what exactly is insured with my vehicle?

Purchase price

PLUS:
  • Metallic paint
  • OEM towbar kit fitted
  • Side protection panels and under door sill trim
  • Floor mats
  • Fog light protectors
  • Sheepskin seat covers (front)
  • Alloy wheel lock nuts
  • Chipped entry and starter ignition key
  • Alloy spare wheel
  • OEM roof bars
  • Rola roof basket and attachment kit
  • Milford cargo restraint
  • Climate control a/c
  • In-dash 6 stacker CD/Radio with 7 speakers including sub-woofer.
Some of these items have been added by them to clarify what they are insuring (e.g. to my knowledge, one could not buy an MY06 XS without metallic paint; but I could be wrong about this. I have never seen one).

Many of these extras have been added in by them at new (replacement) cost, not at depreciated cost. My argument here was that it often costs as much for a s/h part as the original part cost historically. They accepted this argument without a fight.

They have also informed me that they are not concerned about my fitting 215/65 16" in lieu of the 215/60 16" standard tyres (to correct my speedo). They would not allow any increase in width of the tyres without that voiding my insurance (increased risk of aquaplaning is my guess).

I would have to get this in writing from them, of course.

I will also have to check with the RTA here as to the legality of this.

Just shows what can be achieved if you talk sensibly and factually to your insurer. The phone jockey had to get approval to insure for this value, as outside the maximum range, apparently.

So all up including all the extras, I paid about 46% of the replacement cost of a new equivalent at today's prices, and they have now insured the vehicle for 59% of that new value. This is consistent with the fact that it has done only about 100,000 kms and is only about 6 years old (5.75 yrs). This is around 1/3rd of the vehicle's economic lifespan in both cases.

Nice!!
It's something I definately need to do with my insurer once I do the custom gearbox, etc..
With all my little mods im sure the price would go up a good 5k if not a few thousand more with the Gb and bullbar.
__________________
Current vehicle - 84 MY Wagon EJ22 4 Speed
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 2nd April 2012, 11:57 PM
Ratbag's Avatar
Ratbag Ratbag is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bayside, Melbourne, Vic
Year: MY06, MY10
Model: Forester SG & SH
Transmission: 5MT/DR & 4EAT Sports
Posts: 6,219
Ratbag is on a distinguished road
Default

Gidday Taza

Quote:
Originally Posted by taza View Post
Nice!!
It's something I definately need to do with my insurer once I do the custom gearbox, etc..
With all my little mods im sure the price would go up a good 5k if not a few thousand more with the Gb and bullbar.
Quite.
Even though I don't know of any insurer who will place an "agreed value" on any vehicle over 10 years old (forgetting about collectors items and the like FTM), it always helps even with "market value" policies to document with your insurer, the condition and extras on your particular vehicle.

Also for this reason, it pays to take photos of everything, specially all your panel work. Think about it like this: if some mongrel steals your car and then torches it, how can the assessor know whether you had a $20,000 custom paint job in immaculate condition or standard and buggered? They can always be relied upon to assess to the lowest figure imaginable; so you need photos to prove what you assert about the cosmetic condition of your vehicle. That includes both inside and outside, plus photos of any extras and sufficient of your vehicle to identify it as such.

I have discussed this on many occasions with insurers and they have all agreed. It makes for pleasant dealings if an unpleasant event occurs ...
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 3rd April 2012, 12:24 AM
taza's Avatar
taza taza is offline
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,837
taza is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratbag View Post
Gidday Taza



Quite.
Even though I don't know of any insurer who will place an "agreed value" on any vehicle over 10 years old (forgetting about collectors items and the like FTM), it always helps even with "market value" policies to document with your insurer, the condition and extras on your particular vehicle.

Also for this reason, it pays to take photos of everything, specially all your panel work. Think about it like this: if some mongrel steals your car and then torches it, how can the assessor know whether you had a $20,000 custom paint job in immaculate condition or standard and buggered? They can always be relied upon to assess to the lowest figure imaginable; so you need photos to prove what you assert about the cosmetic condition of your vehicle. That includes both inside and outside, plus photos of any extras and sufficient of your vehicle to identify it as such.

I have discussed this on many occasions with insurers and they have all agreed. It makes for pleasant dealings if an unpleasant event occurs ...
I'll give it a shot anyway as my car is almost 11yrs old
__________________
Current vehicle - 84 MY Wagon EJ22 4 Speed
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 3rd April 2012, 12:50 AM
Ratbag's Avatar
Ratbag Ratbag is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bayside, Melbourne, Vic
Year: MY06, MY10
Model: Forester SG & SH
Transmission: 5MT/DR & 4EAT Sports
Posts: 6,219
Ratbag is on a distinguished road
Default

G'day again Taz

Quote:
Originally Posted by taza View Post
I'll give it a shot anyway as my car is almost 11yrs old
Do not let that bother you. It just means that you are now on "market value" rates for your particular vehicle.

While not as good as "agreed value" in some ways (see upthread), your vehicle's market value is determined by all sorts of things about your vehicle and its specific condition.

For example, ATM your Fox has a decreased market value because of the poor maintenance by the previous owner (if your Fox were a horse, the RSPCA would be after him ... ). However, once you have done all the rectification work, it will have an increased market value because of this.

It looks to me as if your panel and paint work is in very good condition, and make sure you take photos of the interior after you have given it the best clean of its life! Cosmetic condition is the first thing an assessor will judge the car on. They may not even notice the poor mechanical health if the engine will no longer run!

It is very important IME that one's car looks very well cared for. If it looks like crap when you have an accident, the loss adjuster will immediately place the value at the very bottom of the range. This first impression can be very hard to change later. It is an excellent reason to keep your car clean and looking well at all times.

I am also far from perfect in this regard. It is a counsel of perfection. It also helps to protect your duco if it is washed regularly with something like Turtle Wax (NOT ever with domestic detergent. These all contain salt ... and it penetrates into the joins in the body work ).

I got half way through doing our Camry with Porzelack when my shoulders clapped out. It is a superb polish/wax containing high levels of Carnauba wax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnauba_wax
Sure makes it look far better. I need to give it a bath and finish the job.

Once I have done the petrol tanker (the Camry ... ), I will give Roo2 a coat.
The higher the proportion of this in the car polish, the better it protects, and the more expensive it becomes ...

IME, this needs to be done about once a year, but it depends. When water doesn't bead on the paintwork is when it needs to be re-done. This also helps protect the car's paint from UV damage. One could think of it as lessening the car melanoma rate ...

Roo1 had a couple of small but nasty "melanomas" that had to be cut out. Cost me a grand!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 3rd April 2012, 01:25 AM
taza's Avatar
taza taza is offline
Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,837
taza is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratbag View Post
G'day again Taz

Do not let that bother you. It just means that you are now on "market value" rates for your particular vehicle.

While not as good as "agreed value" in some ways (see upthread), your vehicle's market value is determined by all sorts of things about your vehicle and its specific condition.

For example, ATM your Fox has a decreased market value because of the poor maintenance by the previous owner (if your Fox were a horse, the RSPCA would be after him ... ). However, once you have done all the rectification work, it will have an increased market value because of this.

It looks to me as if your panel and paint work is in very good condition, and make sure you take photos of the interior after you have given it the best clean of its life! Cosmetic condition is the first thing an assessor will judge the car on. They may not even notice the poor mechanical health if the engine will no longer run!

It is very important IME that one's car looks very well cared for. If it looks like crap when you have an accident, the loss adjuster will immediately place the value at the very bottom of the range. This first impression can be very hard to change later. It is an excellent reason to keep your car clean and looking well at all times.

I am also far from perfect in this regard. It is a counsel of perfection. It also helps to protect your duco if it is washed regularly with something like Turtle Wax (NOT ever with domestic detergent. These all contain salt ... and it penetrates into the joins in the body work ).

I got half way through doing our Camry with Porzelack when my shoulders clapped out. It is a superb polish/wax containing high levels of Carnauba wax:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnauba_wax
Sure makes it look far better. I need to give it a bath and finish the job.

Once I have done the petrol tanker (the Camry ... ), I will give Roo2 a coat.
The higher the proportion of this in the car polish, the better it protects, and the more expensive it becomes ...

IME, this needs to be done about once a year, but it depends. When water doesn't bead on the paintwork is when it needs to be re-done. This also helps protect the car's paint from UV damage. One could think of it as lessening the car melanoma rate ...

Roo1 had a couple of small but nasty "melanomas" that had to be cut out. Cost me a grand!

Condition wise my Foz has alot less car park dents and the likes for its age. the bumpers have some slight scuffing on the undersides from offroad but upwise they aren't pressed in by reversing into anything and the paint work cmoes up really well with a good wash and polish. especially for its age. The interior condition again is in good condition, a few scuffs but what car thats over 10years old doesn't have any. Again no tears in the seats or stains.

For example if the car were in a major accident most of the time its not driven out but towed so the mechanical condition is unknown

But that's soon to be changed with all this money being poored into it. I know at the present time for my car (being a Limited model too, so comaprable to an XS) is insured for $9,500 bone stock. Then adding all the accessories and mods.

eg. Boot liner, lift kit and suspension work, roof racks, basket, spotties, seat covers, stereo(head unit, sub, amps, speakers),tow bar, sumpguard, floor mats, uhf, etc... then soon the charger, custom gearbox with LSD's and front bar. All up it adds to quite a few thousand dollars.

Did you send photo's into your insurer as proof of what you have?
__________________
Current vehicle - 84 MY Wagon EJ22 4 Speed
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comprehensive insurance, insurance

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 07:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.