Phantom grip

[frogstar7055]

Just ran across this over at USMB.
It's an LSD conversion for R-160.
Anybody ever heard of it?

Phantom Grip (http://www.phantomgrip.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=54&products_id=164)

I searched the net and found a lot of opinions on this on the ricer forums.
Varying opinions,some like it others hate it.
All said it works as advertised but but those that hate it say it can't hold up.

But...........

They are all launching like their at the dragstrip all the time and drifting/hard in and out of the corners.
300 hp or more.
I believe that mild off road (http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/#) this would work very well and hold up.
Setting it up correctly seems to be the most important thing for longevity.
Maybe it's crap and I'm missing something but I'm giving serious consideration to trying this.
I have a 4eat trans.
I don't want to drive around on the street with a welded diff.
I drive this thing to W.V. once or twice a year and I want to retain most of it's street ability.
I just think this is a low buck compromise to improve off road performance (I'm a cheap b*stard).

Just wondering if anyone here had experience (their own or someone they know) with this.


All opinions sought and welcomed.

[frogstar7055]

Anybody?

[Smash81]

Have to wait a bit for the aussie boys to post, they're on a very different time than we are...

[frogstar7055]

Have to wait a bit for the aussie boys to post, they're on a very different time than we are...

You'd think I'd remember that since I lived in Japan for a couple of years,getting old.

What do you think of this?
Even if you don't have any first hand experience with it I'd still be interested in your opinion.

[Smash81]

LOL.

Me? Not interested. I don't like the big mods that really could foul up the longevity of my Foz. At this point in time he's my daily driver as I don't have a motorcycle right now. I'm willing to deal with slighty less prowess offroad in return for less trouble in the future. If I really wanted to do something drastic I'd figure out how to swap to an AT transmission.

[frogstar7055]

So none of the Aussie brothers have any experience or opinion on this?

[Kevin]

Well, sounds alright - but most of our vehicles came with stock rear LSD. I haven't heard of it before.

[nipper]

I cant find anything negative about it. Seems easy enough to install, some minor grinding. Most the stuff on the web is "blow our own horn" kind of thing. I did find instructions for installation, which aside from some minor grinding, seems easily reversable if you decide you dont like it. I dont see anyone reporting real world driving with it, nor how long it lasts, just track responses.


Someone has to be the test subject :)


nipper

[frogstar7055]

Someone has to be the test subject :)nipper


Think it might be me.

[camp2dogs]

I am new and stupid here but wasn't there something in the old forum about disconnecting a wire under the console and reconnecting to another wire to complete 4X4 or is that a different subject all together. I have an 03 Forester and I am thinking seriouly about adding King Coils and some KYB shocks for a little more height. I drive my Forester in some pretty rough areas of NW Arkansas Mtns. (USA) and South Dakota corn fields hunting pheasants

[carljwnc]

I am new and stupid here but wasn't there something in the old forum about disconnecting a wire under the console and reconnecting to another wire to complete 4X4 or is that a different subject all together.

Old post on this board is gone.:sad: Reincarnated on subaruforester.com 4WD On Demand From 4EAT (http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f89/4wd-demand-4eat-3091/) Automatic transmission only, supposed to be an excellent mod.:cool:

[nipper]

completley different from what we are saying here.


nipper

[frogstar7055]

Old post on this board is gone.:sad: Reincarnated on subaruforester.com 4WD On Demand From 4EAT (http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f89/4wd-demand-4eat-3091/) Automatic transmission only, supposed to be an excellent mod.:cool:

What that mod does is lock the output shafts from trans together front and rear.
Still got open diff's so one wheel can spin with other sitting still,front or back.
Locker,limited slip,welded diff will make both wheels get some traction to a greater or lesser degree depending on which one your talking about.

[challis]

Froggy, I just ran across thiss thread. How did it work out? challis

[carljwnc]

Froggy, I just ran across thiss thread. How did it work out? challis

We haven't seen frogstar in quite some time, since he sold his Fozzy.:sad::shrug: Supposed to be a great mod, but I haven't tried it myself. I believe some others here have, hopefully they will chime in.

[Barry]

On friday I had a phone conversation with Michael at Scorpion about LSD rear diffs for inproving off-road ability.

As a result of this conversation it seems that:

If your wheels are all on the dirt then there is no point to this for non-racing off-road use;
If you have insufficient travel to keep all wheels on the ground when off-road - which would most likely result from a lift reducing articulation - then the easiest / best / cheapest way to rectify this would be to fit 'quick disconnect' sway bar links.
The greatest improvement for off-road ability, at least for the 5 speed manual dual ratio box, would be to fit the scorpion low ratio gears, or an early Subi box with similar low ratio gears.
This makes sense to me, but I'm happy to be advised otherwise by those who think the logic is incorrect.

On this basis, atm I'm not looking at modding my rear diff.

[Rally]

Is a combination of things I reckon. I'm still trying to see if the dramatically better grip my new diffs have in the Impreza would work in the Forrie. If they do, then I reckon better diffs would be the best bet. Time- just need time to test the cars back to back. And another Impreza to test against.

[Barry]

What are your diffs Rally, and what are standard in the Forie?

[Rally]

MY99 WRX (modified)- Front- Helical LSD Centre- DCCD. Rear- R180 plated LSD.
MY04 Forester-5 speed Front- Open Centre- Viscous LSD Rear-Viscous LSD

The centre diff in the WRX can pretty much be locked when in manual mode.

[Barry]

Thanks Rally, given that this is an old thread I figure it is probably OK to 'hijack' it! :biggrin:
On my Outback I presume the front is open, the centre is obviously viscous. Not sure about the rear, have variously been told it is open or viscous.

What I'm still trying to work out is, if the rear is open, is there any point in fitting a viscous LSD in the back, or pretty much not, as I understand from my talk with Michael at Scorpion last Friday?

[carljwnc]

What I'm still trying to work out is, if the rear is open, is there any point in fitting a viscous LSD in the back, or pretty much not, as I understand from my talk with Michael at Scorpion last Friday?

I thought there was a sticker somewhere on the rear diff. identifying if it was LSD or not??? Maybe this was just on the older models???

[Barry]

Will have a look the next time I'm scrunching around down there.

[Rally]

If it is open, I'd go plated. There are aftermarket ones but some are very noisy when turning- very clunky. Mine is factory and is quiet- I assume the R160 ones would be similar. I cannot see the point of having a really nice crawler low range if all you are doing is spinning wheels due too an open diff. If you already have a viscous LSD then maybe the crawler range would be the next step.

[simxs]

if the rear is open, is there any point in fitting a viscous LSD in the back?

The standard viscous rear LSDs are next to useless. I wouldn't bother.

I cannot see the point of having a really nice crawler low range if all you are doing is spinning wheels due too an open diff.

True that.

Our rear diff options are pretty limited (nothing nice like auto-lockers or ARB airlockers are available). Best thing that is actually available is probably a plated/clutch LSD. As Tony mentioned, he has a Subaru one in his Impreza (which I have seen in action - very nice!). Another user on here (scaddanr) has a Cusco in his Forester.

[Barry]

The standard viscous rear LSDs are next to useless. I wouldn't bother.



True that.

Our rear diff options are pretty limited (nothing nice like auto-lockers or ARB airlockers are available). Best thing that is actually available is probably a plated/clutch LSD. As Tony mentioned, he has a Subaru one in his Impreza (which I have seen in action - very nice!). Another user on here (scaddanr) has a Cusco in his Forester.


That is all really useful info.

My primary use for lower gearing (still not 'crawlers', as such) is for climbing on relatively steep dirt roads in 'dry' conditions. In those conditions I'd expect both rear wheels 'on ground', and therefore LSD wouldn't operate anyway. Thats as I see it, am I right?

[Rally]

If the road is reasonably smooth and even then yes. But on that last trip we did to the Watagans it was reasonably steep and definitely not smooth and even, I found both the low first and the diffs I had to perform without problem. The problem was ground clearance. Even with me right rear wheel high in the air and the left front unweighted, and the front of the car grounded, I still had enough drive and grunt to easily get out. Yet there have been other times- say on the Abercrombie trip, where better diffs would have worked. The number of times when I needed better gearing is less than better traction. We don't have the ground clearance for it on ascents, although it would be good on descents.

[simxs]

In those conditions I'd expect both rear wheels 'on ground', and therefore LSD wouldn't operate anyway. Thats as I see it, am I right?

If the track is steep but the ground is even, quite right, an LSD is probably not of much benefit.

However I find that, since our wheel travel is fairly short compared to larger offroaders, it doesn't take much unevenness of the ground for wheels to become unloaded and start to spin if you are trying to climb a hill or get over a bump. You then need to resort to momentum...

(As an aside, years ago my dad had an original shape Range Rover. While it had a manually lockable centre diff (actuated by inlet manifold vacuum - clever!) it had no cross axle diff locks or LSDs. Because of its very long travel coil springs and lack of anti-roll bars it could go through uneven ground while rarely spinning a wheel. Mind you, it certainly leaned a lot in corners on the road!)

[Barry]

If the track is steep but the ground is even, quite right, an LSD is probably not of much benefit.

However I find that, since our wheel travel is fairly short compared to larger offroaders, it doesn't take much unevenness of the ground for wheels to become unloaded and start to spin if you are trying to climb a hill or get over a bump. You then need to resort to momentum...

(As an aside, years ago my dad had an original shape Range Rover. While it had a manually lockable centre diff (actuated by inlet manifold vacuum - clever!) it had no cross axle diff locks or LSDs. Because of its very long travel coil springs and lack of anti-roll bars it could go through uneven ground while rarely spinning a wheel. Mind you, it certainly leaned a lot in corners on the road!)

I agree that wheel travel is crucial in this regard, hence my current thinking that disconnectable sway bar links would be a real benefit! :lildevil: (I now think of disconnects as 'cheap and easy lockers'! :twisted: )

[Barry]

MY99 WRX (modified)- Front- Helical LSD Centre- DCCD. Rear- R180 plated LSD.
MY04 Forester-5 speed Front- Open Centre- Viscous LSD Rear-Viscous LSD

The centre diff in the WRX can pretty much be locked when in manual mode.

Can the DCCD be fitted to the manual, or will they only fit into / work with the Auto box?
(Is it a matter of space in the case, or do they need specific connections on the wiring loom / other specifics?) They sound :twisted: !

[Rally]

I don't know. I guess they should as they do go in the back of the box- but whether there is room in a dual range box is at best a guess. WOuld probably have more chance in an XT. But 5 speed ones are very rare compared to 6 speed. I'd be more inclined at getting an 11kg centre diff- again, assuming they fit. The dccd does need wiring- and the 5 speed ones draw a lot of current compared to 6 speed, and are less sophisticated. Hence why I think the 11kg centre clutch is worth a look. The autos never came with DCCD- although not sure about the latest STI

[Barry]

I don't know. I guess they should as they do go in the back of the box- but whether there is room in a dual range box is at best a guess. Would probably have more chance in an XT. But 5 speed ones are very rare compared to 6 speed. I'd be more inclined at getting an 11kg centre diff- again, assuming they fit. The dccd does need wiring- and the 5 speed ones draw a lot of current compared to 6 speed, and are less sophisticated. Hence why I think the 11kg centre clutch is worth a look. The autos never came with DCCD- although not sure about the latest STI

Thanks mate, apols for the 'quiz program'!:) I'n just really 'green' when It comes to all the Subi variations - so much more than with the old beetle!;)

Of course, WRX ... so hardly going to be auto ... :lol:

Hopefully I'm still a couple of years away from the 'pull down', before which I'd like to have sorted the absolute optimum to fit with the new low range gears.

Was thinking potentially your WRX set up, Front, centre & rear. The description of 'pretty much locked' sounded like gold to me! :lildevil:

[Barry]

Oops, slow internet=double post! :lol:

[simxs]

Though this is getting a bit off topic (centre rather than rear diffs), since Tony has mentioned the other diff options I'd suggest taking a look at the info here: http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108266/article.html. As mentioned when I posted this previously, the correct units for measuring the 'stiffness' of a viscous LSD are kg.m per 100rpm. That is, kg of weight applied at the end of a one metre lever per 100rpm difference in rotation of the front and rear output shafts. (The article suggests measuring torque in kg/m which is incorrect.)

[Rally]

Thanks mate, apols for the 'quiz program'!:) I'n just really 'green' when It comes to all the Subi variations - so much more than with the old beetle!;)

Of course, WRX ... so hardly going to be auto ... :lol:

Hopefully I'm still a couple of years away from the 'pull down', before which I'd like to have sorted the absolute optimum to fit with the new low range gears.

Was thinking potentially your WRX set up, Front, centre & rear. The description of 'pretty much locked' sounded like gold to me! :lildevil:

Pretty much locked referred only to the centre diff. When turning as say in a carpark, the car fights you the whole way and it is like the handbrake is on. When wheels are lifted, there is a momentary slip, but I'm finding it hard to replicate off road conditions on road. I also need another, standard WRX to compare it against. The rear diff is less aggressive than the centre diff in "locked" mode, but more aggressive than VLSD. I have noticed a difference in steering feel with the new front diff- and it is perhaps the only negative aspect of the conversion- albeit only slightly

[Barry]

Though this is getting a bit off topic (centre rather than rear diffs), since Tony has mentioned the other diff options I'd suggest taking a look at the info here: http://autospeed.com/cms/A_108266/article.html. As mentioned when I posted this previously, the correct units for measuring the 'stiffness' of a viscous LSD are kg.m per 100rpm. That is, kg of weight applied at the end of a one metre lever per 100rpm difference in rotation of the front and rear output shafts. (The article suggests measuring torque in kg/m which is incorrect.)
Thanks for that link simxs. From that post I guess that, whatever variation I choose for the centre diff, it can be done separate to opening the case to fit the low ratio gears. Therefore, can do it 'one step at a time'! :)

Rally, yes understood that the 'fully locked' comment was about the centre diff. Ideally I'd like to be able to achieve this with the centre diff when required off road, then return it to normal when on-road. Perhaps a DCCD will approximate this.

OK, will now take my musings to a separate thread...