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taza
11th May 2011, 05:52 AM
Well I should probably post up here about the Locker project im working on. Many of you know how painful it is to have open or useless viscous lsd's in our Subaru's. 90% of Subarus from the mid 80's onwards use the R160 diff.
Now I didnt really want to pay a few thousand dollars for Cusco or some other for form of LSD. But the downside is that they are only LSD's not even lockers for that price.

I got the idea from Blue Fox who was working with using the rear drum brakes to create seperate leavers for each side and lock the one with the least traction to make the other wheel get the power needed to move the vehicle. From this I had the idea of just creating a locker, whether it be air, electronic or a leaver.
I have good skills at using CAD programs to design objects and buildings. So I am going to try and use my skills along with the help of others to come up with a locker for the R160 differential. I am not a fan of auto/E lockers and I have read that in manual transmission vehicles they jump, bounce and skit around on the roads abit. So if this project comes together it wont be an auto locker.

Another solution is to upgradeto R180 diffs then get a locker for that, but personally I dont want to have to go and change all my diffs around and mess with my gearing. I want to use what I have... :cool:

Our vehicles at stock are quite capable for a semi-offroader and with modifications are very capible. But there are moments that im sure most of you have gone 'if I had a locker I wouldnt of been stuck for hours' or "it would of made that hill so easy to climb', situations like that anyway.

Now for this project an engineer would be quite helpful but since one hasnt contacted me im kinda on my own for designing it. I have the support of many people over at AuSubaru and im sure I will here too.

I have acquired 2 R160 open 3.7 rear diffs that i will be picking up in Perth when I go in about 3 weeks time. Once I get them I can see actually how much room there is and start making measurements to come up with a design. I am probably going to have to design a new carrier then the locking mechanism.

Carl has offered to have a go at actually building it since he is a genius at making things out of blocks of steel :biggrin:

I am willing to get something out of this, even if its destroying a diff in the process. Now its not real hard after looking at other designs of lockers but it is going to take time. If anyone is willing to help, be supportive or has anything to comment post it here or give me a pm.

You can also check out the thread where I started it at Ausubaru.

http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19545


Taza

carljwnc
11th May 2011, 06:23 AM
This will be fun!!!:cool:

I do have a clue, but not much more, on how lockers work, so I'm going to have to educate myself a bit as well. I'll also hunt around and see if I can find myself an R160 diff. With proper gearing is the R160 adaptable to just about any of the Subaru models??? While I'm at it, I might just see if I can develop one for YotaRu as well.:ebiggrin:

taza
11th May 2011, 06:56 AM
Yes the R160 will fit in 90% of Subarus from the mid 80's onwards.

Three good places to educate yourself are Youtube, Google and Google images.

Once I get the two diffs I can see what little space there is as im told and the work with that.

El_Freddo
11th May 2011, 09:37 AM
Yes the R160 will fit in 90% of Subarus from the mid 80's onwards.

And its not limited to a set ratio either... ;)

Cheers

Bennie

taza
12th May 2011, 11:06 AM
After some discussing over at Ausubaru I have found out that there was an auto locker created for the R160 diff about 15 years ago. It didn't sell to well and was canned. There were also a few problems that have been had with auto lockers and AWD vehicles. So I am 100% sure that what I come up with won't be an auto locker.
I also couldn't live with the clicking when cornering.

Taza

El_Freddo
12th May 2011, 10:58 PM
Yeah I've known about these for some time Taza. If the auto locker was able to be produced and not break itself, then I'm 100% sure that a manual locker can be produced for the r160.

Cheers

Bennie

Blue Fox
13th May 2011, 12:13 AM
I'm all for it, but I really do think that a true locking diff will break stuff. I've been talking with a good avid 4x4 buddy (Tony, the spotter in my rock crawling videos), and he has snapped stock axles on the Jeep Cherokee's when equipped with locking diffs, so it don't know. He is expressing concern with the CV Joint strength, U-Joint strength and overall diff straight to handle the load of a locker. In some instances where you need a locker, you can have the majority of the weight on the rear wheel that has traction, and asking it to push the vehicle up is a HUGE stress on the drivetrain and that axle. So I don't know, it could work, or it could be fragile, we'll just have to see I guess.

Like I said, I'm all for it. But a MUCH more inexpensive proof-of-concept to see if the Forester's could even handle a locking diff is to get a used one, weld it up, and test it out. If you snap an axle or break other parts, you'll have your answer.

Tony and I agree that independently operated handbrakes for each rear wheel will be best as it allows some slip so it's not exactly locked, just to give the drivetrain some slack/relief instead of absolute locked. Again, in theory anyway. I'll have my own proof of concept videos up here as soon as I can rip apart my center console to disconnect one of the rear brakes from the brake handle. Then we'll see. :biggrin:

taza
13th May 2011, 12:38 AM
That could be very true Josh but I know people have welded their diffs (in Subaru's) up before an not had an issue. But that does depend on what your planning on doing with your vehicle. For example with some of the things you do it could possibly break and if it did that wouldn't suprise me. But it could also work.
Plus with a manual locker you only have it locked when you want when comparing to a welded diff or auto locker.
I also had abit of a go at your brake idea, I disconnected my E-Brake and tried locking one side while I had diagnal spin. It moved the car slightly forward but not enough to get me through the situation. I still had most if not all of the the power at the rear axel going to the wheel with the least traction. But my rear drums may be stuffed, my hand brake doesnt work to well anyway. I usally just leave my car is gear when shes off so she doesnt roll away :lol:

Anyway we will see what happens.... But if it does work and doesnt brake too easily some of us are going to have mean little Subies :lildevil:

Taza

d_generate
13th May 2011, 04:24 AM
Personally I'd rather see a stronger silicon somehow put into the viscous center & rear diff bringing them up from a pissweak 4kg to around 15 - 20kg, much less than a locker but good enough for what we need & possibly a cheaper option.

Blue Fox
13th May 2011, 05:23 AM
That could be very true Josh but I know people have welded their diffs (in Subaru's) up before an not had an issue. But that does depend on what your planning on doing with your vehicle. For example with some of the things you do it could possibly break and if it did that wouldn't suprise me. But it could also work.
Plus with a manual locker you only have it locked when you want when comparing to a welded diff or auto locker.
I also had abit of a go at your brake idea, I disconnected my E-Brake and tried locking one side while I had diagnal spin. It moved the car slightly forward but not enough to get me through the situation. I still had most if not all of the the power at the rear axel going to the wheel with the least traction. But my rear drums may be stuffed, my hand brake doesnt work to well anyway. I usally just leave my car is gear when shes off so she doesnt roll away :lol:

Anyway we will see what happens.... But if it does work and doesnt brake too easily some of us are going to have mean little Subies :lildevil:

Taza

I'm not sure if you have rear discs or not, but on my XT, I have the disc brakes as part of the normal braking system, and inside the rotor, I have separate drums specifically for the e-brake. Since it's only used for e-brake and not for normal braking use, my e-brake still grips the car and doesn't let it move even when the lever is partially lifted. But we'll see how well it really does when I pull apart my console (hopefully tomorrow) and try it out. I'll even take a video of it.

carljwnc
13th May 2011, 06:15 AM
I think the handbrake idea has merit in lifted wheel situations, but I don't think it will help you out when you have to climb that long, slippery slope where your diff. is going to want to switch power from one wheel to the next. That kind of situation is where your really going to want a lock.

As far as tearing up the drive train, this is why we have to make it and try it out before we can say it is a functional modification. I too have read about a few folks with welded diffs., seems like they just generally remove an axle for driving on pavement, works, but kind of a PITA.

At least for prototype and possibly even production, why not have the locker cable actuated??? Cheap, simple, and could follow the handbrake cable into the cabin.

taza
13th May 2011, 08:47 AM
At least for prototype and possibly even production, why not have the locker cable actuated??? Cheap, simple, and could follow the handbrake cable into the cabin.

Thats the idea for the proto type.


Now someone might be able to inlighten me abit. Since the internet, email and phones were down at my work today (Im a computer tech), we couldnt do much so I had a long discussion for a couple of hours with a work colleague. He has a jeep wranger with a auto lcoker in the front, it works quite well for what it is, but then we got talking about AWD vehicles and lockers....
I know the torque is split 50/50 between the front and rear axels with a manual Subie and 60/40 or 90/10 with an auto depending on the year. Does anyone know if the centre diff is open, permantly locked or lsd? Because if I create a rear locker and the centre diff is lsd or open then little or no power will go to the rear wheels at all. Will I need to find a way to create a locking mechanism for the centre diff as well?

Can someone help shed some light on the issue for me?

Im pretty sure with an L-Series (and brumby) being a 4WD vehicle with FWD then Hi & Low range that when you engage 4WD it locks the centre diff. Am I right on that? They didnt have AWD to my knowledge so that wouldnt be an issue.

Cheers
Taza

d_generate
13th May 2011, 09:35 AM
I think you'll find the standard center diff is a 4kg viscous, as said earlier you can get 12kg, 20kg & I think there may be a rare 15kg but you are looking at $600ish for one of the stronger diffs 2nd hand, nice to be able to change the fluid if viscosity is the only difference & not being a locker you don't have the sudden jarring on the pissy little axles so less chance of snapping one out in the middle of nowhere.

El_Freddo
13th May 2011, 11:38 AM
Can someone help shed some light on the issue for me?

Im pretty sure with an L-Series (and brumby) being a 4WD vehicle with FWD then Hi & Low range that when you engage 4WD it locks the centre diff. Am I right on that? They didnt have AWD to my knowledge so that wouldnt be an issue.

The centre diff is a 4 or 5kg unit as d_generate has said. Apparently the 20kg unit is not a happy one for a daily driver - from what I've heard the 15kg unit is good for both daily driving and offroading.

As for the L series and MY's, they don't have a centre diff - just a mechanism that engages the rear drive to the drive that the front also receives...

Cheers

Bennie

taza
14th May 2011, 12:35 AM
What about creating a manual diff lock for the centre diff in AWD vehicles too? It wouldnt be too different from a rear or front diff. Could it? Then if you could lock 2 of the diffs you would have a decent chance offroad.

Thats also a good point Tom. So a 12kg would be the best for the centre and a front and rear locker. Its doable with time and money.


Taza

El_Freddo
15th May 2011, 08:08 AM
Yeah its a fair bit different!

I think we need to focus on one thing at a time!

Cheers

Bennie

carljwnc
15th May 2011, 08:11 AM
I think we need to focus on one thing at a time!

Agreed, R160 rear diff locker project. Once it's done and tested we'll be able to tell if the center diff needs to be addressed.

Dulagarl
15th May 2011, 10:08 AM
I admire your enthusiasm for this Taza!

But as others have said: one thing at a time. I will watch with interest, and I'll let you know if I can do anything to help.

yallahyimshi
15th May 2011, 11:56 AM
I want that locker so badly!! I´ll buy one, even if i get in financial trouble ;)

SUBSCRIBED!!

d_generate
15th May 2011, 12:49 PM
Agreed, R160 rear diff locker project. Once it's done and tested we'll be able to tell if the center diff needs to be addressed.
Ask anyone who rally's a WRX and they'll soon tell you which center diff you need.....12kg ;)

But that's a simple solution so yeah concentrate on the rear. I still think axle snapping is going to be a problem so I think I'd rather have 3 decent LSD's, ATM I have one fairly good & two very ordinary ones but luckily the hard one is done.

taza
15th May 2011, 11:23 PM
Yes, I am getting abit ahead of myself. Will focus on the Rear locker project first and see how that goes. People have welded their diffs (R160) though in Subaru's and they have done very well. So snapping may or may not be an issue. We will find out when it gets tested. Im very interested to see how it works too.
I have someone in Perth who is willing to test it in a L-Series (so when 4WD is engauged the centre diff is locked) and a mate locally with a Manual AWD MY03 Outback (with a 4kg centre LSD). We can then compare the too aswell.

Im just imagining what the H6 Forry could do with a locker or 2 :lildevil:

Also sorry for the late posting, was busy over the weekend (was my 18th Birthday) :biggrin: Got a Sidchrome Socket set, a Swag, Some new fishing gear and money to help me buy a roof basket from my mates. Now I can actually do some more mods with the tools now I dont have to borrow Dads :lol: Then get out there with my Foz and have a good time.

Taza

mr turbo
16th May 2011, 12:37 AM
Also sorry for the late posting, was busy over the weekend (was my 18th Birthday)
Happy Birthday for last w-end Taza :bananatoast:

Regards
Mr Turbo

d_generate
16th May 2011, 05:42 AM
Yeah happy B'day mate, wooot..... pubs, clubs & voting lol.

El_Freddo
25th May 2011, 06:37 AM
Any news on this?

Just keen to keep this alive.

Cheers

Bennie

taza
25th May 2011, 07:02 AM
Ive come up with a rough design of how its going to work. I am picking up 2 diffs when I go to Perth on the 4th of June. So then I can start work actuallly designing it. Im really excited and looking forward too it.
But until then I cant post up anything.

Cheers
Taza

El_Freddo
25th May 2011, 07:14 AM
No worries. That little post above sounds VERY promising!

Cheers

Bennie

taza
25th May 2011, 08:14 AM
Its probably going to be a leaver and cable that engages and dis-engages it. Doesn't need to be fancy air or electronic. People have welded their diffs up and they ahve been reasonably strong and not broken, the most likely part to brake will be a CV.

Welded diffs have already been tested. This is Phizina (over at AuSubaru) a few years ago when a team of Subaru Tos*ers went in a race at Loveday. They did brake a CV making it 3WD and in the end the rear diff gave up but thats hard core offroading.

YouTube - ‪3WD Subaru race wagon at Loveday after October RC09 (monday) - Rock Crusher‬‏

Regards
Taza

d_generate
25th May 2011, 12:31 PM
Don't know if it had anything to do with his welded diff but I was standing near Guy's car when it's gearbox went KABOOM on it's first conjoined outing.............Get ma a trailer please.

garrettG
25th May 2011, 02:18 PM
I'm excited. And I think that with the locker the risk of a broken CV is more unlikely because you will be able to engage only when needed. Not to mention that the CV's on those GL's look like toothpicks :P

Best of luck with the build :)

El_Freddo
26th May 2011, 05:27 AM
Its probably going to be a leaver and cable that engages and dis-engages it. Doesn't need to be fancy air or electronic.

Taza, this is basically how it is done with one of those "fancy" units - some have eliminated the cable though. With that said, when you get a locking diff to work, the lever will allow the end user (such as me) to work out how I want to be able to engage the difflock.

I'm excited. And I think that with the locker the risk of a broken CV is more unlikely because you will be able to engage only when needed.

Yeah I agree about that! Best bit is that it will be AWD compatible :D

the CV's on those GL's look like toothpicks :P

They're pretty much the same as what's in your foz... except for age...

Cheers

Bennie

garrettG
26th May 2011, 12:22 PM
They're pretty much the same as what's in your foz... except for age...

Cheers

Bennie

ur right, for some reason I always thought they were a much smaller diameter. But nope, just brittle and old from the broken ones I've seen.

-Garrett

taza
11th June 2011, 12:24 AM
When I was in Perth I picked up one of the diffs. Going to start getting measurments from it and drawing it up on the computer. Once I have completed that I can use those parts on the computer to automate the actions of a standard open diff. Then design the locking mechanism and simulate it on the computer before handing the designs over to Carl (Carljwnc) to see if he can physically make the locking mechanism.


Taza

simxs
11th June 2011, 01:34 AM
I think it's great you're taking the initiative with this useful upgrade Taza!
Good to hear you got back from your trip safe too.

dirtyRU
11th June 2011, 02:06 AM
Like i said before... Have our own in-house manufacturing dept. Taza works up the designs & Carl cranks them out! Lifts could be next :biggrin:
...And i'll happily take 20% off the top! We could use use a member over in Sweden to say that's where we are based out of - to avoid billions in taxes of course... I see this coming together :lildevil:

Barry
11th June 2011, 06:02 AM
This all sounds impressive. I'd be interested in one for my 05 Outback.:cool:

carljwnc
11th June 2011, 06:14 AM
When I was in Perth I picked up one of the diffs. Going to start getting measurments from it and drawing it up on the computer.

:cool: Cool!!!

Like i said before... Have our own in-house manufacturing dept. Taza works up the designs & Carl cranks them out! Lifts could be next :biggrin:

Don't you work in the insurance racket...um, er, business???:iconwink: The one thing that has really stopped me from doing any kind of 'for sale' production work from my home machine shop is the liability. (Well that and the fact that I don't have the greatest equipment or the time to use it much) Just curious, if you know, what sort of insurance a manufacturing biz has to carry so you don't get the bejeebers sued out of you if someone gets hurt using something you made???

dirtyRU
11th June 2011, 12:11 PM
:cool: Cool!!!



Don't you work in the insurance racket...um, er, business???:iconwink: The one thing that has really stopped me from doing any kind of 'for sale' production work from my home machine shop is the liability. (Well that and the fact that I don't have the greatest equipment or the time to use it much) Just curious, if you know, what sort of insurance a manufacturing biz has to carry so you don't get the bejeebers sued out of you if someone gets hurt using something you made???

Haha, yessir! All you would need is a CGL policy (commercial general liability). Good news is that you can say you have alot of experience "machining" & the other thing is that you probably arent going to do just a ton of business so you're exposure won't be nearly as bad. You can get different limits (usually $300k-$1mill is the norm). Your premium will probably be a minimum premium, ranging from $650-$1100 a year. I can't write anything in NC since i'm not licensed there, but i might just play around with a quote to give you a better idea.Without having all the overhead costs, i bet you could be real competitive ;)

Barry
12th June 2011, 12:36 AM
Would there be the same problem if just producing small numbers for friends - i.e. us - for 'proof of concept' / testing?

Barry
12th June 2011, 12:42 AM
I think you'll find the standard center diff is a 4kg viscous, as said earlier you can get 12kg, 20kg & I think there may be a rare 15kg but you are looking at $600ish for one of the stronger diffs 2nd hand, nice to be able to change the fluid if viscosity is the only difference & not being a locker you don't have the sudden jarring on the pissy little axles so less chance of snapping one out in the middle of nowhere.
Not meaning to take this thread off topic however, as I have a liberty rear LSD that I am yet to fit, I thought I'd ask...
How difficult is it to drain and re-fill with 12kg or 15kg fluid?

d_generate
12th June 2011, 03:48 AM
Apparently not a 5min job but quite doable, a mate of mine used to do it on Holden/Chev diffs all the time to tighten them up, I would have thought drilling then plugging the holes would be enough???? the liquid silicone is quite easy to get hold of but I'm not sure if it's the viscosity or the plates in the diff that makes the difference in strength.....I forgot to ask as the explanation was quite long.

carljwnc
12th June 2011, 06:12 AM
Your premium will probably be a minimum premium, ranging from $650-$1100 a year. I can't write anything in NC since i'm not licensed there, but i might just play around with a quote to give you a better idea.Without having all the overhead costs, i bet you could be real competitive ;)

Cool, that's not really as bad as I suspected. I was thinking along the lines of $300-400 a month. Don't worry about taking it any further though, I was always curious and that fulfills my curiosity. Terrapondus Machine Works has always been, and will remain, an 'underground' entity.:twisted:

Would there be the same problem if just producing small numbers for friends - i.e. us - for 'proof of concept' / testing?

In the states if you got hurt, killed, or your vehicle got damaged from something I made, you could sue me. Whether you won or not might depend on what kind of mood the judge was in that day, but yes, I could be held liable. Y'all just have to promise NOT to sue me if your rear diff blows up.:iconwink:

taza
12th June 2011, 07:19 AM
In the states if you got hurt, killed, or your vehicle got damaged from something I made, you could sue me. Whether you won or not might depend on what kind of mood the judge was in that day, but yes, I could be held liable. Y'all just have to promise NOT to sue me if your rear diff blows up.:iconwink:

:rotfl: that got me laughing. The prototype or first build what ever you want to call it will be tested in a spare diff, so it doesnt matter if it blows up. And unlikely that it will kill someone at slow or medium offroad speeds.

But if something were to go wrong on the highway with the diff causing the subaru to crash, flip or roll then thats another story. It is going to be well tested before any production or sale goes forth.

The carrier of the sprider gears just needs to be recreated and I can quite simply do that once I get the measurements.

Taza

yallahyimshi
21st June 2011, 11:26 AM
I´ll get one of these if they are getting into production :D

i can tell how it feels and sounds when a diff gives up and blows out! It was on a journey from kenya to tanzania and we were going 80km/h on a dirt road with a toyota hzj or bushtaxi ;) it made a very loud bang followed by the sound of the remains of the crankshaft smashing into the undercarriage like clonk clonk clonk

the solid axle had cracks in it and the crankshaft that goes into the diff was broken and flew away several meters... all the parts of the diff were scattered along the way we came but we could drive along with just front wheel drive ;)

i think something similar could happen to the forester but i dont see it rolling over or something as long as you dont panic :D

garrettG
28th June 2011, 02:43 AM
any updates on this one?:)

taza
28th June 2011, 03:09 AM
I have been designing a new carrier, I have already done a rough copy of the spider and ring gears. The pasts 2 weeks have gotten away from me though with the commuting, work and other things.

Taza

El_Freddo
28th June 2011, 01:57 PM
I have been designing a new carrier, I have already done a rough copy of the spider and ring gears. The pasts 2 weeks have gotten away from me though with the commuting, work and other things.

Taza,

2 or 4 spider gears?

I was looking on the net for designs since work's been so quite. I should have posted this ages ago, but this diff is one that has great reputation from what I've heard. Here's a flash player application that shows how the diff works:

http://www.mcnamaradiffs.com.au/difflockmech.html

Cheers

Bennie

Dulagarl
28th July 2011, 12:35 AM
It's gone a bit quiet in here lately. Would be very keen to hear any reports on this.

taza
28th July 2011, 01:19 AM
Sorry I must of posted over at AuSubaru and forgot to post here. There is some progress.

Quoted from myself over at AuSubaru.

Ok, I have been slowly working on this during my spare time. I have come up with a carrier and a locking mechanism that should work. It will use a cable mechanism like the dual range lever in AWD Subies to engage and disengage it. It is nearly finished and would probably only take me 4 more hours of work and I would be ready to get a prototype physically built :mrgreen:

Only problem is that my hard drive on my computer with all my photos, music, documents, reciepts and this project was on there is dead.... Well kinda. Im in the process of getting it recovered. I do have a backups but its not the latest version of this project. The drive is recoverable but its going to take time and probably cost.
Just letting you guys know. I will say that many many censored words were yelled. I also now have quite a sore fist but atleast the brick wall is 100% fine :rolleyes:

Taza

http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=173344&postcount=66

You can read what some of the guys over there have posted after I posted that here.

http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19545&page=7


I am awaiting a cable I ordered on ebay to try and recover my data.


Cheers
Taza

Dulagarl
28th July 2011, 02:14 AM
Sorry I must of posted over at AuSubaru and forgot to post here. There is some progress.

Quoted from myself over at AuSubaru.



http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=173344&postcount=66

You can read what some of the guys over there have posted after I posted that here.

http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19545&page=7


I am awaiting a cable I ordered on ebay to try and recover my data.


Cheers
Taza

That is excellent news on the project, but not so good news about your data. Good luck sorting that out.

Barry
6th September 2011, 12:00 AM
Great news over on AUSubaru that you have recovered the data Taza. Can't wait to see your rendering!

Barry
26th September 2011, 07:05 AM
Just by way of a price comparison, ... saw big@rse ARB Air lockers in the window of one of the Geelong 4x4 stores tonight. $1760 FFS.

Admittedly they are big bits of metal, and include the total diff, but at that price I' happy that Taz is working on this project, as ARB wouldn't be much of an 'option' even if they were prepared to manufacture for our Subis!

taza
26th September 2011, 07:39 AM
Well barry i can't comment on a price because I don't know what they will cost to manufacture.
I have been doing more stress testing with my inventor drawing and so far its not handling much. The locker within the diff itself keeps breaking. I will be posting pictures up of it in the next couple of days to give all you guys and the guys on AuSubaru an idea of what ive come up with so far.

Taza

Dulagarl
26th September 2011, 11:11 PM
Well barry i can't comment on a price because I don't know what they will cost to manufacture.
I have been doing more stress testing with my inventor drawing and so far its not handling much. The locker within the diff itself keeps breaking. I will be posting pictures up of it in the next couple of days to give all you guys and the guys on AuSubaru an idea of what ive come up with so far.

Taza

That must be annoying!

keep up the good work though mate.

mr turbo
27th September 2011, 03:10 AM
I will be posting pictures up of it in the next couple of days to give all you guys and the guys on AuSubaru an idea of what ive come up with so far.
Will be interesting to see what you've come up with so far :)

keep up the good work though mate.
Ditto

Regards
Mr Turbo

El_Freddo
28th September 2011, 02:33 AM
Over on USMB someone's found out that the Alfa/Audi (can't remember :() Quattro has a manual rear locker in them from the factory. Only problem is that they run in the opposite direction to what we have in our subarus. And they're physically bigger partly due to the alloy casing rather than the heavy cast casing we have.

I'm keen to have a look at one to see what can be done with it - or have it as a bench ornament. Maybe find one yourself and have a gander at what Afla /Audi did with theirs, then see if you can use the same concept...

You'll get there mate, just need to keep chipping away at it!

Cheers

Bennie

Barry
26th November 2011, 09:02 PM
Hi Taza,

How are those pics coming mate? :iconwink: I know it is the 'silly season', but thought I'd ask to give the thread a bump, anyway. :poke:

taza
26th November 2011, 09:19 PM
Hi Taza,

How are those pics coming mate? :iconwink: I know it is the 'silly season', but thought I'd ask to give the thread a bump, anyway. :poke:

Sorry Barry I completely forgot. I have been talking with Elfreddo (Bennie) and after having heaps of issues im back to the drawing board. I do have a basis to work off though and am looking into the audi quattro idea aswell as phantom grip. Im just gonna keep poltting away through it and over christmas and newyears I have 3 weeks off so that will give me sometime to work on it :iconwink:

Davidov
26th November 2011, 11:50 PM
Fill diff with concrete. Consider it locked. :raz:

Barry
27th November 2011, 11:39 AM
No worries Taza, just thought I'd ask.
Geez mate, 3 weeks off over Christmas - New Year, make sure you get out and have some fun - not just sitting on the computer! :raz:

taza
27th November 2011, 08:34 PM
^ Yeah, well I can't be at work because they are removing Asbestos from some of the school roofs.
Gonna be moving down to perth anyway for the start of uni too so its gonna be busy. Also have to ship off that gearbox to SUPERU when I get the chance over in the US (Dual Range gearbox :biggrin:).

Can't wait to get out in the car too and do some last dune and beach work before I move to the city. Won't be doing any 4x4ing for a while down there :( but anyway.

I will make sometime to work on the project.

Also Barry you have to post pics of your sports bar when you put it on, can't wait to see it :ebiggrin:

Taza

Barry
27th November 2011, 10:12 PM
...
Also Barry you have to post pics of your sports bar when you put it on, can't wait to see it :ebiggrin:

Taza

Shall do Taza, once it is on I'll be posting in the 'Before & After' thread! :p

As I don't think a snorkel is on the cards in practical terms, the front bar, rear swing mounts and 1" Kingsprings with 1" strut blocks will be about it for me.

Not guite the Dulagarl, but as modified am 05 Outback as I know of, apart from the one in the US - but it is either an auto or single range manual. :biggrin:

While I'm waiting for your rear locker project to come together I might also fit the lsd rear diff I have at home as a temporary measure! :monkeydance:

taza
28th November 2011, 08:21 AM
^ ive got a fair bit to compete with. Especially with the H6 Foz and a few other famous 1st gens :P But one thing at a time, plus I want to make mine special and unalike!

NachaLuva
28th November 2011, 09:55 PM
^ ive got a fair bit to compete with. Especially with the H6 Foz and a few other famous 1st gens :P But one thing at a time, plus I want to make mine special and unalike!

Take your time & do it right would be my advice. Sure there's lots of people keen to see it finished & on their car but i'm sure they all want reliability & good design/build as well... :ebiggrin:

Superu_legacy
12th December 2011, 06:48 PM
After some discussing over at Ausubaru I have found out that there was an auto locker created for the R160 diff about 15 years ago. It didn't sell to well and was canned. There were also a few problems that have been had with auto lockers and AWD vehicles. So I am 100% sure that what I come up with won't be an auto locker.
I also couldn't live with the clicking when cornering.

Taza

Hey Taza,

Good thread, I just found it and am starting at the beginning.

At any rate I got to this point and wanted to ask about this factory auto locker you mentioned from 15ish years ago....

Is this the clutch-pak LSD from some old GL10 wagons and RX cars, or a completely different beast?

Venom
12th December 2011, 07:15 PM
Basically a detroit locker thats rarer than the proverbial.

taza
12th December 2011, 08:39 PM
I was working on a few other ideas and going to get some of the parts made to test for fitment within the diff but due to some personal matter, my car issues, Christmas, work and uni all becomeing more involved I haven't had any time to work on it. Finalise the drawings and get them made.
Plus over my holiday break for Christmas and newyears I have to move two houses and I won't have much free time.

An auto locker would work well in the back of an L-Series or Brumby with stock driveline behind the power of an EJ22. But in an AWD Subie not so much, it might kill the centre diff and also safetly is a concern with the back end wanting to slide out onroad.

NachaLuva
13th December 2011, 05:58 AM
Yeah, although I have seen the legendary auto locker in action & am in awe of its might, lol, I would still prefer a manual locker that i would lock from the cabin only when i need it.

taza
13th December 2011, 06:18 AM
Yeah, although I have seen the legendary auto locker in action & am in awe of its might, lol, I would still prefer a manual locker that i would lock from the cabin only when i need it.

Who has one???

Does it work well? Best ive seen is a few H6's and turbos with front and rear lsd's.

NachaLuva
14th December 2011, 05:23 AM
I first saw it in action proving its worth climbing a very steep, deeply rutted & loose track in Walhalla. Made it look easy! Next thing i know he's snatching/towing venom in his mighty H6 (but then only single range GB) UP this same hill!

Yes...it works well! :lildevil:

carljwnc
14th December 2011, 07:15 AM
I should be able to give some input on an auto locker here in a couple of months.:twisted: Of course, it will be in a Yota not a Subie.

NachaLuva
14th December 2011, 10:43 AM
I should be able to give some input on an auto locker here in a couple of months.:twisted: Of course, it will be in a Yota not a Subie.

lol ;)

mr turbo
15th December 2011, 04:30 AM
I should be able to give some input on an auto locker here in a couple of months.:twisted: Of course, it will be in a Yota not a Subie.
Great to hear Carljwnc :)

Are you putting it on the front or rear ?

Regards
Mr Turbo

carljwnc
15th December 2011, 07:24 AM
Great to hear Carljwnc :)

Are you putting it on the front or rear ?


Rear for now. A few smaller projects, then the BIG project will see the front locked.:cool:

NachaLuva
15th December 2011, 10:09 AM
I recently wrote to ARB complaining bout a lack of a locker for a subaru, noting that the Forester is the most popular SUV on the Oz market.

They wrote back saying there is a yet to be announced locker coming out for the R180 diff...

Still learning bout these diff thingys...can a R180 diff be made to fit a Foz?

d_generate
15th December 2011, 10:30 AM
Yeah but you'll need to change axles and possibly other bits, it's a much stronger diff to use as a base so good news there but not sure how they'll go on the front as I think all the fronts are the same size in the 5 speeds, maybe just a cheap OBX LSD like mine would be enough.

taza
16th January 2012, 07:21 AM
Currently moving house and moving to Perth (Western Australia) for university this year.

Not far off the design for a prototype being built, this should continue in Feb.

Im hoping to have a working prototype by mid 2012 :D

mr turbo
16th January 2012, 07:28 AM
Thats great to hear taza :)

Thanks for the update :)

Regards
Mr Turbo

NachaLuva
17th January 2012, 12:38 AM
Im hoping to have a working prototype by mid 2012 :D

Excellent news Taza :biggrin:

I'd better get started on my locking gearbox with L-series 1.59:1 low range & L-series 1-4 gears & 4.44:1 diffs with larger tyres :lildevil:

taza
17th January 2012, 12:43 AM
Excellent news Taza :biggrin:

I'd better get started on my locking gearbox with L-series 1.59:1 low range & L-series 1-4 gears & 4.44:1 diffs with larger tyres :lildevil:


Thanks, why are you doing that?? With the gearing stock currently in our Gen Foresters its pretty darn good, the biggest issue is lack of power and low end torque. Thus my main reason for the supercharger :twisted:

A locking centre or even 12kg centre LSD to replace the 4kg centre would help heaps too.
I'd be happy with that and a locked rear... would be you out of almost any troubles, especially where diagnal spin or one wheel spin is an issue :iconwink:

El_Freddo
17th January 2012, 12:49 AM
I'd be happy with that and a locked rear... would be you out of almost any troubles, especially where diagnal spin or one wheel spin is an issue :iconwink:

Yeah it will! If you've ever been in a subi with a welded rear end it's the same, until you can't unlock it in the cab once back on/near the black top.

Cheers

Bennie

Barry
17th January 2012, 02:41 AM
Great to hear Taza!
As to the heavier centre LSD, I understand that these can have an adverse effect on ABS, for those of us who have it. :/

taza
17th January 2012, 02:59 AM
Darn... DCCD it is then further down the track...

stilson
17th January 2012, 04:44 AM
You can do it Taza!
PS I have a heavy duty cable to donate to your cause.
I guess you could call it an engagement present. Getit?

Rally
17th January 2012, 07:24 AM
I'm not sure how the centre diff would affect ABS- worth some thought. I hear with a 20kg centre diff you can no longer do handbrake turns. But with an 11kg one I would have thought it would in itself reduce if anything the locking of wheels. Only car I've driven with an 11kg centre diff was a purpose built rally car which had no ABS anyway, so I cannot be sure.

Barry
17th January 2012, 07:38 AM
I'm not sure how the centre diff would affect ABS- worth some thought. I hear with a 20kg centre diff you can no longer do handbrake turns. But with an 11kg one I would have thought it would in itself reduce if anything the locking of wheels. Only car I've driven with an 11kg centre diff was a purpose built rally car which had no ABS anyway, so I cannot be sure.
From memory I think you might be right. 11kg is ok, but not the 20kg.

taza
17th January 2012, 07:41 AM
From memory I think you might be right. 11kg is ok, but not the 20kg.

Well that is still 3x better than the stock 4kg. That with a lockable rear would allow you to get through some situations that might otherwise cause damage quite easily :)

Barry
17th January 2012, 07:50 AM
Well that is still 3x better than the stock 4kg. That with a lockable rear would allow you to get through some situations that might otherwise cause damage quite easily :)
Absolutely Taza!
I will be talking to the gearbox mob about this when I investigate getting my new low ratio box built.

taza
17th January 2012, 07:52 AM
Absolutely Taza!
I will be talking to the gearbox mob about this when I investigate getting my new low ratio box built.

I thought you had it already??

Anything over the standard 4kg would make a difference :)

Barry
17th January 2012, 07:59 AM
I have the Liberty LSD rear to fit, but haven't done the box yet.
Now that the SubaXtreme sports bar is on the box will be next.
Possibly a heavier clutch as well - anyone have any suggestions on that?
Would be great if anyone local has a front LSD fitted so that I could get a feel for on-road handling. ...

NachaLuva
17th January 2012, 09:29 AM
Absolutely Taza!
I will be talking to the gearbox mob about this when I investigate getting my new low ratio box built.

I would love to hear what they say...


Would be great if anyone local has a front LSD fitted so that I could get a feel for on-road handling. ...

Venom in his H6 beast has a torsen (?) front LSD & normal plate rear LSD. When he took me for a spin around the streets of Ballarat all I noticed was heaps of grip! :cool:

Barry
17th January 2012, 10:44 AM
I would love to hear what they say...



Venom in his H6 beast has a torsen (?) front LSD & normal plate rear LSD. When he took me for a spin around the streets of Ballarat all I noticed was heaps of grip! :cool:

Good to know, I have been told that front LSDs can make the steering feel heavy / 'dead' on-road. Would hate to lose the responsiveness of the OE steering.

d_generate
17th January 2012, 02:55 PM
I've got an OBX front helical LSD, makes virtually no difference to the way the car feels on the road even when booting it and if I want I can retain the ABS which you can't with a plated clutch diff.

I'm seriously thinking of selling my DCCD as I don't really use the car off road enough and I can't be bothered sorting the electrics out.

Rally
17th January 2012, 02:58 PM
I found the factory helical front diff did make the feel of the steering worse. It is worth it though. Plated rear diff made no difference to ABS- nor did helical front diff.

Venom
17th January 2012, 07:00 PM
barry it would be best to drive a car with a front lsd, I always take "good" and "bad" opinions with a grain of salt. You're welcome to a spin in mine to get a feel for yourself. I love the front lsd. There is no mysterios slidding off the road in the wet I was told might happen, thats bull****. On the road You get more grip before losing traction, and when you do the car is very controllable unlike the factory understeer. Offroad it's as good as a plated lsd. It does not work when one of the wheels leaves the ground, but neither does a plated lsd. There is a synergy with having both that makes the car very, very capable.

Absoulutely get a 1way lsd, don't touch a 1.5 or 2way. They're for the track!

Barry
17th January 2012, 09:01 PM
I've got an OBX front helical LSD, makes virtually no difference to the way the car feels on the road even when booting it and if I want I can retain the ABS which you can't with a plated clutch diff.

I'm seriously thinking of selling my DCCD as I don't really use the car off road enough and I can't be bothered sorting the electrics out.

Thanks for that D-Gen,

I have been thinking about the DCCD however, I think the electrics would be even more complicated for me than for you!




I found the factory helical front diff did make the feel of the steering worse. It is worth it though. Plated rear diff made no difference to ABS- nor did helical front diff.

I recon that is the point Rally, to some extent everything is a compromise, it is about being clear on the objective in each case, and doing sufficient research to ensure that you don't discover 'unknown unknowns' after $helling out and doing the work. And that is no mean feat for a mechanical dunce like me! :rotfl:



barry it would be best to drive a car with a front lsd, I always take "good" and "bad" opinions with a grain of salt. You're welcome to a spin in mine to get a feel for yourself. I love the front lsd. There is no mysterios slidding off the road in the wet I was told might happen, thats bull****. On the road You get more grip before losing traction, and when you do the car is very controllable unlike the factory understeer. Offroad it's as good as a plated lsd. It does not work when one of the wheels leaves the ground, but neither does a plated lsd. There is a synergy with having both that makes the car very, very capable.

Absoulutely get a 1way lsd, don't touch a 1.5 or 2way. They're for the track!

I totally agree about taking a grain of salt with opinions on this type of thing. In the end it comes down to how it feels to the individual.

Thanks for the offer Venom, I'll catch up with you and have a spin it it just to get a feel of what it is like.

Controlability, the synergy thing and improved off-road capability is exactly what I am after.

Also good advice about only getting a 1 way lsd.

Is yours a 'Torsen'? That is one of the options offered by the gearbox manufacturers in Sydney.

NachaLuva
17th January 2012, 11:01 PM
Absoulutely get a 1way lsd, don't touch a 1.5 or 2way. They're for the track!

What are they?

Rally
18th January 2012, 12:57 AM
The wiring for the DCCD is pretty straightforward if using the DCCD-Pro. Going on memory, there are only 2 wires to the DCCD itself. Then there is power- no different to a radio but using a higher rated circuit, an earth, a wire to the handbrake and a wire for the TPS out from the ECU harness. That is the only tricky bit- you need a schematic to know which is the TPS feed wire, and splice into that. Then just colour match the wires for the thumbwheel and auto on/off switch. There is also a sensor that needs to be correctly stuck to the floor- and correctly means facing the right direction, is flat and is glued in place. Even so, I would have thought am 11kg centre might be easier- and cheaper.

Rally
18th January 2012, 12:59 AM
It's when and how the diff reacts- whether power is applied or not for to start it's limited slip action

. What are they?

Dulagarl
18th January 2012, 07:18 AM
I have the Liberty LSD rear to fit, but haven't done the box yet.
Now that the SubaXtreme sports bar is on the box will be next.
Possibly a heavier clutch as well - anyone have any suggestions on that?
Would be great if anyone local has a front LSD fitted so that I could get a feel for on-road handling. ...

yes. Mine has an Exedy FJK7005HD. Supposed to be heavy as hell, and can be ridden forever I am told.

taza
18th January 2012, 07:33 AM
yes. Mine has an Exedy FJK7005HD. Supposed to be heavy as hell, and can be ridden forever I am told.

I have something similar except mine is Clutch Pro (Aussie brand). Its heavy duty, had it in for almost 20,000km. I have had the slight smell here and there from it but onthing bad at all, very happy with it and the car seems to be abit quicker taking off with it too :)

El_Freddo
18th January 2012, 08:50 AM
very happy with it and the car seems to be abit quicker taking off with it too :)

Psychological you think? I don't see how a car could be quicker taking off with a new clutch unless there were already clutch slipping issues, in which case you'd already know about them!

Cheers

Bennie

taza
18th January 2012, 09:15 AM
Psychological you think? I don't see how a car could be quicker taking off with a new clutch unless there were already clutch slipping issues, in which case you'd already know about them!

Light weight flywheel. Im told it gives you a few extra hp down low, alot of race cars use them.

Venom
18th January 2012, 05:06 PM
Barry my front lsd is an kbx torsen.
Perhaps we should move lsd and ckutch talk to a new thread?

Barry
18th January 2012, 09:34 PM
Barry my front lsd is an kbx torsen.
Perhaps we should move lsd and ckutch talk to a new thread?

Thanks for those details Venom.

I've been thinking the same thing myself, happy to have those who wish to discuss lsd, clutches etc to do so in my 'project' thread: http://offroadsubarus.com/showthread.php?t=1932&page=5

taza
18th January 2012, 09:37 PM
Perhaps we should move lsd and ckutch talk to a new thread?

Yeah good idea :)

But while we are off topic how are the repairs on your lib going from the hail damage.

Dulagarl
30th January 2012, 08:36 AM
Hmmm...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Subaru-WRX-Impreza-R-160-Cusco-LSD-4-44-1-Diff-/260945920187?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cc196c0bb#ht_500wt_1202

taza
30th January 2012, 09:13 AM
Hmmm...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Subaru-WRX-Impreza-R-160-Cusco-LSD-4-44-1-Diff-/260945920187?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cc196c0bb#ht_500wt_1202

I was gonna bid on it then swap it into my 4.11 ratio rear diff but im gonna wait for my locker to come along this year :iconwink: Someone buy it!!!

NachaLuva
30th January 2012, 10:14 AM
I was gonna bid on it then swap it into my 4.11 ratio rear diff but im gonna wait for my locker to come along this year :iconwink:

I'm gonna wait too :monkeydance:

Barry
30th January 2012, 07:36 PM
Can't get flea bay at work. What is it?

Dulagarl
30th January 2012, 08:53 PM
Can't get flea bay at work. What is it?

The ad says:


"Subaru WRX R160 rear diff. This is fitted with a Cusco plate type limited slip centre.

Was bought as a spare for our 1998 STi rally Car but never fitted.


No longer required.


It is located on the Gold Coast."

Barry
30th January 2012, 11:22 PM
Sounds good, although the plate type need on-going adjustment, iirc.

Still, much better than standard!

NachaLuva
30th January 2012, 11:44 PM
Still, much better than standard!

:lildevil::monkeydance:

Dulagarl
31st January 2012, 04:08 AM
The ad says:


"Subaru WRX R160 rear diff. This is fitted with a Cusco plate type limited slip centre.

Was bought as a spare for our 1998 STi rally Car but never fitted.


No longer required.


It is located on the Gold Coast."


Sounds good, although the plate type need on-going adjustment, iirc.

Still, much better than standard!

with 5 days to go, its up to $200.

Think I'll look for a viscous lsd somehow.

Barry
31st January 2012, 05:22 AM
with 5 days to go, its up to $200.

Think I'll look for a viscous lsd somehow.

Forgot to say this arvo, thanks for posting the details of what the link was about.

No e-bay at work is a real pain!

stev0
9th February 2012, 04:44 PM
try hidemyass.com and access via there.

Barry
10th February 2012, 08:07 AM
try hidemyass.com and access via there.
Mmm, might dodge the work server, but an pretty sure it would cost me my job if I was 'sprung'.

taza
10th February 2012, 09:04 AM
Mmm, might dodge the work server, but an pretty sure it would cost me my job if I was 'sprung'.

Yeah don't do it mate. I got caught doing s**t like that in high school.
Us IT people see everything, you would be suprised some of the stuff its possible to find out.
Plus the last thing you want is to loose your job:raspberry:

Barry
10th February 2012, 06:14 PM
Yep, bosses would love an excuse to shoot the union Delegate - and 'computer miss-use' carries all sorts of 'inferences', including 'NSFW'.

Venom
10th February 2012, 07:36 PM
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy116/amautoservices/Gen3%20V12/IMG_1544.jpg

R230 Diff in a Gen3 Liberty rear subframe. There is an ARB locker available for the IRS R230 diff. It'd probably be easier to stick something like this in your car, the only problem is its not a universal solution as pretty much every generation of subaru probably has a different subframe/driveshaft/tailshaft.

El_Freddo
10th February 2012, 11:41 PM
There is an ARB locker available for the IRS R230 diff. It'd probably be easier to stick something like this in your car, the only problem is its not a universal solution as pretty much every generation of subaru probably has a different subframe/driveshaft/tailshaft.

Good find Venom - the hardest part would be finding the shafts I reckon! And personally I wouldn't buy an ARB locker - they're not called "air leakers" for nothing, plus to save on money (read keep profit up) parts are now plastic such as the piston that moves to engage the locker!

I'm still keen to see the R160 manual locker become a reality... Just have to be patient I reckon!

Cheers

Bennie

PS - what's that diff found in anyway? Commodores? :p

Venom
11th February 2012, 04:22 AM
Its a nissan diff, 300zx and some IRS nissan 4WDs. Couldn't find out specifically what 4WD though.

NachaLuva
12th February 2012, 06:23 AM
R230 Diff in a Gen3 Liberty rear subframe. There is an ARB locker available for the IRS R230 diff.

ARB are bringing out a locker for the R180 diff this year...can they be swapped in?

And personally I would buy an ARB locker - they're not called "air leakers" for nothing, plus to save on money (read keep profit up) parts are now plastic such as the piston that moves to engage the locker!

Did you mean NOT buy an ARB locker?

Yeah I've heard its not just the plastic but also the quality of some of the steel parts isnt up to par any more. Shame as even though they are ridiculously expensive, they USED to be bullet proof :(

I'm still keen to see the R160 manual locker become a reality... Just have to be patient I reckon!


Yep me too :biggrin:

Venom
12th February 2012, 07:00 AM
R180 is piece of piss because its factory fitted to the later STI's. You need to swap out the rear hubs, get matching driveshafts and possible change the driveshaft as well. Nothing custom to make it fit though! Well except maybe the disc rotors, those STI's have a 5x114.3 i think.

Barry
12th February 2012, 07:54 PM
R180 is piece of piss because its factory fitted to the later STI's. You need to swap out the rear hubs, get matching driveshafts and possible change the driveshaft as well. Nothing custom to make it fit though! Well except maybe the disc rotors, those STI's have a 5x114.3 i think.

Well THAT is interesting! :lildevil:

ARB may no longer be 'bullet proof', but I'd think it should be up to anything I'd be likely to throw at it.

El_Freddo
12th February 2012, 11:19 PM
ARB are bringing out a locker for the R180 diff this year...can they be swapped in?

Are you sure about this? The R180 has been listed on their catalogue for a number of years now but when you contact them they say they're not making them anymore... Maybe the new Navara is the reason for this - they've got an R180 rear diff in them, but it's a solid axle construction, just the internals swap over. Apparently they have a factory locker option... Just need the R180 case then.

As for shafts and hubs etc, I don't think it would be difficult to custom make some output shafts to fit to what we've already got :twisted:

Did you mean NOT buy an ARB locker?

Sorry! Yes that's what I meant. Edited now ;)

Yeah I've heard its not just the plastic but also the quality of some of the steel parts isnt up to par any more. Shame as even though they are ridiculously expensive, they USED to be bullet proof :(

Yep. TJM and a few other companies are building stuff that's better these days from what I've heard. But that's all on the grapevine...

R180 is piece of piss because its factory fitted to the later STI's. You need to swap out the rear hubs, get matching driveshafts and possible change the driveshaft as well. Nothing custom to make it fit though! Well except maybe the disc rotors, those STI's have a 5x114.3 i think.

Yeah as mentioned above, I've thought about doing it in the L series with custom output shafts on the diff to match my stock drive shafts, but ARB weren't producing the R180 locker so I didn't take it any further.

Cheers

Bennie

scaddanr
16th February 2012, 08:41 AM
Sounds good, although the plate type need on-going adjustment, iirc.

Still, much better than standard!


Hi Barry, I have a 1.5 way cusco plated rear lsd in my 2004 forester x manual. I have now done 100 000 k with it now and no adjustedment has been required. It still works as good as new. Oil changes are exactly the same as with a regular diff, and also contrary to popular belief it does work when one wheel is in the air. I personaly think this is a better option to a locker. The lockers aren't very nice to drive on normal roads with.

Barry
16th February 2012, 09:51 AM
Hi Barry, I have a 1.5 way cusco plated rear lsd in my 2004 forester x manual. I have now done 100 000 k with it now and no adjustedment has been required. It still works as good as new. Oil changes are exactly the same as with a regular diff, and also contrary to popular belief it does work when one wheel is in the air. I personaly think this is a better option to a locker. The lockers aren't very nice to drive on normal roads with.
Thats interesting, I had heard that 1.5 and 2 way LSDs were not suitable.

scaddanr
16th February 2012, 05:00 PM
Hi Barry.

http://www.cusco.co.jp/en/catalog/cusco_lsd_typers_typemz.html

1 way means the diff will only engage in one direction. Therefore won't do any thing when going in reverse. I would suggest a 1.5 or 2 way for the rear diff. The link above explains the differences.

garrettG
17th February 2012, 05:06 PM
Hi Barry, I have a 1.5 way cusco plated rear lsd in my 2004 forester x manual. I have now done 100 000 k with it now and no adjustedment has been required. It still works as good as new. Oil changes are exactly the same as with a regular diff, and also contrary to popular belief it does work when one wheel is in the air. I personaly think this is a better option to a locker. The lockers aren't very nice to drive on normal roads with.

i am not sure how having a locker wouldnt be nice for driving on normal roads? because it is going to be a manually engaged locker, during normal driving situations the locker would not be compensating anything (in theory)

-garrett

scaddanr
17th February 2012, 11:04 PM
Good point GarrettG. I was thinking it was an auto locker

Species
18th February 2012, 02:43 AM
I've driven a 6cyl Datsun with a welded diff... it wasn't too bad, but I wouldn't like it to be permanently like that plus it would be killer on your tyres, handles nicely in a slide though, my goodness the trouble a locked rear can get you out of, even ON road!

Dulagarl
20th February 2012, 08:14 AM
R 180 locker?

http://ruggedrocksoffroad.com/advanced_search_result.php?search_in_description=1&keywords=Nissan+R180+Differential+Locker

Looks like its archived, but proof that they did once exist.

actually, maybe they are around now...

http://xterranation.org/showthread.php?882-ARB-Locker-for-the-R180

front locker only it seems. Can't find a rear one yet...

El_Freddo
20th February 2012, 08:52 AM
i am not sure how having a locker wouldnt be nice for driving on normal roads? because it is going to be a manually engaged locker, during normal driving situations the locker would not be compensating anything (in theory)

That's the idea Garrett. If you have an auto locker it will work when it sees fit to do so, and it may cause unnecessary strain on your drive train - some think it might also screw up your centre diff in the long run. It certainly would not be welcome in the back of my AWD!

I've driven a 6cyl Datsun with a welded diff... it wasn't too bad, but I wouldn't like it to be permanently like that plus it would be killer on your tyres, handles nicely in a slide though, my goodness the trouble a locked rear can get you out of, even ON road!

You should try out an L series with a welded rear end! Be ware though, it will get you into trouble if you're not careful - "point and shoot" is the way it worked for me!

Greg, yeah that could be good, but trying to find one is near impossible, it could be a while before you find one but that's the trick - keep looking!

Cheers

Bennie

stilson
20th February 2012, 09:45 AM
I've driven a 6cyl Datsun with a welded diff... it wasn't too bad, but I wouldn't like it to be permanently like that plus it would be killer on your tyres, handles nicely in a slide though, my goodness the trouble a locked rear can get you out of, even ON road!

Nice, I have a Datsun 1600 with a locked R160 and it is fantastic unless I have to push it around a corner witch is to often theses days.

I certainly wouldn't like to connect it to the AWD in the Subaru full time however.

taza
7th June 2012, 01:35 AM
Well while I've been home I have found some time to work on this. I think I am close to getting a prototype made up. Should get it finished during uni break.
I have the switch and cable sorted out. The design is pretty much complete and relatively simple.

thunder039
7th June 2012, 02:44 AM
are you installing the locker in the diff yourself?

taza
7th June 2012, 04:26 AM
are you installing the locker in the diff yourself?

Yes with the help of a mate who knows what he is doing :lol: :iconwink:

It probably won't be in my Forester, more likely an L-Series or something with a lockable centre. It will certainly get a hard time offroad, just hope it doesn't bust a diff or CV. But that's another problem to look at if the time comes.

thunder039
7th June 2012, 05:48 AM
Yes with the help of a mate who knows what he is doing :lol: :iconwink:

It probably won't be in my Forester, more likely an L-Series or something with a lockable centre. It will certainly get a hard time offroad, just hope it doesn't bust a diff or CV. But that's another problem to look at if the time comes.

so is this going in your l series?

taza
7th June 2012, 06:11 AM
so is this going in your l series?

Probably not as I am putting up my L for sale when uni exams are over this semester.(in 2 weeks)

thunder039
7th June 2012, 06:17 AM
ah ok fair enough, so is this a trial for the forester?

taza
7th June 2012, 06:36 AM
ah ok fair enough, so is this a trial for the forester?

Nope, I want to put it in something with a locking centre first as that will properly put it upto the test. See if it can handle it, if anything breaks like CV's or the diff internals or the locker itself. Then put one in an AWD Subie like my car and go from there..

Some lucky person can test it in their car for me as I won't have a locking centre..

El_Freddo
7th June 2012, 07:02 AM
Some lucky person can test it in their car for me as I won't have a locking centre..

I've got a locking centre :twisted:

And I know some choice tracks to test this sick puppy on :twisted: :twisted:

So to clarify, it's going to be a manual locker yeah? :D

This makes me excited, but not in a dirty or big kev way... Time to start saving!

Cheers

Bennie

Barry
7th June 2012, 07:47 AM
I've got a locking centre :twisted:

And I know some choice tracks to test this sick puppy on :twisted: :twisted:

So to clarify, it's going to be a manual locker yeah? :D

This makes me excited, but not in a dirty or big kev way... Time to start saving!

Cheers

Bennie
:lol: :lol: :lol: How do we explain 'Big Kev' to our mates across the lake?!!!

Before anyone asks ... NOTHING to do with a politician.

Species
10th June 2012, 09:26 AM
The same way i settle most arguments....Youtube:

BIG Kev's Cleaning Products Commercial - YouTube

d_generate
10th June 2012, 01:59 PM
I just couldn't bring myself to watch that, I ran out of eye bleach last week. RIP Kev.

JSimmons
21st June 2012, 10:51 PM
Ok, I'm new here and was just browsing threads relating to locking differentials (as I'm about to do this on my 4Runner), but I just have to say...

I'm excited too Big Kev!!!! :monkeydance:

jf1sf5
9th September 2012, 06:24 PM
I'm on the way for a manual rear difflock that will be operated with air, as soon as it will be installed (in 4-6 months), i'll let you know

NachaLuva
9th September 2012, 10:44 PM
I'm on the way for a manual rear diff lock that will be operated with air

Awesome! :lildevil:

Do you have any details you can share? There's many, many people on here who would love to know more...myself included lol ;)

taza
10th September 2012, 03:05 AM
I'm interested too. Time is just getting away from me on this project, plus not having a computer to properly work on doesn't help with research and designing either :(

mr turbo
10th September 2012, 03:15 AM
That sounds great jf1sf5 :raz:
Any details would be fantastic :)

Regards
Mr Turbo

d_generate
10th September 2012, 05:37 AM
By the way guys, Big Kev died years ago, made a fortune selling crap on TV then bought a top touring car team then went bust............then died.

stilson
10th September 2012, 07:44 AM
Don't forget about a front manual locker as well. And hurry up. :rotfl:

jf1sf5
10th September 2012, 03:17 PM
I met in Valloire (France), which is the biggest 4x4 meet of the year, a guy that transforms Suzukis for trial, and he makes difflocks and other goodies...and he was interested to have a look at my Forester, because he loves those cars that are a bit "different" as the usual big and full equipped ones !

So, last wednesday, I drove 500 km to see his atelier and talk about the project with my "old" rear diff and the 2 axles. He thinks it is very possible to put a Suzuki 413 diff in the rear because there is enough place, but only with a R160 without LSD because the rack and pinion are larger. Mmmmmh, sounds good !

Oh, I forgot to answer Stilson, I already have a Quaife in front but I think about another difflock in the middle, it should go in because I have read here somewhere that they are about the same size, am I right ?

stilson
10th September 2012, 04:40 PM
I really don't know I'm sorry, but I sure hope so! Do you have a link to any info on the quaife? What is the principal of operation?

jf1sf5
11th September 2012, 12:44 PM
The Quaife diff works like a Torsen diff, its made in england, has life warranty and works perfectly as long as both wheels have grip, but doesn't work if one wheel is in the air (no grip at all)

If I put a difflock in front (and rear, of course), I also have to put one in the middle because the central LSD is not strong enough, so my plan is a difflock in the middle and in the rear and keep the Quaife in front, which means at least 3 wheel drive...am I right ?

stilson
11th September 2012, 01:45 PM
Does feathering the brake cause it to engage?

Does it have any detrimental effects to handling like increasing understeer?

Have you considered a DCCD?

jf1sf5
11th September 2012, 02:10 PM
I don't know if I understand the 1st question,sorry, but if so, when I brake just a little with my left foot, the torque goes on the wheel with most adherence

I'd say that in a curve, the torque goes on the wheel outside of the curve and makes the car oversteer but it depends the surface

Not yet, because I don't know if the DCCD can be locked 50/50

stilson
11th September 2012, 02:41 PM
Yeah, you interpreted my first question correctly. Sounds ideal to me. I found them for sale for 600 pounds in the UK but they are only listed for the front in a 6spd STi and rear in impreza. I'll email them.

It is my understanding that the DCCD when in 50/50 lock acts stronger than a 20kg Sti centre but does not lock completely.

Would be very enjoyable in unlocked mode also.

jf1sf5
11th September 2012, 03:46 PM
The Quaife diff in my forester is for a 1st gen impreza, bought 550 £ in 2005

The company that will do the rear locker is called ERM (etudes et réalisations mécaniques), www.erm4x4.fr , you can have a look ! I have to wait a few months because they move...about 300m in a bigger house ! And because it is a prototype he has to think to make it enter the subaru diff :lildevil:

NachaLuva
11th September 2012, 11:22 PM
jf1sf5, you will have LOTS of people on here very interested in the ERM locker :lildevil: Please keep us posted on any updates.

My understanding of the DCCD centre is that the driver dials in whatever ratio he/she wants & the diff sticks to that, whether it is 20/80 or 50/50. I'm not sure if it "locks" the diff though... It is certainly a step up from the standard vLSD centre however. It also seems to be pretty strong going by the high performance engines some hook up to it :twisted:

taza
12th September 2012, 12:25 AM
I find the majority of the time the centre diff isn't really an issue, it's more the open diffs front and rear which cause me to loose traction and come to a stop. On any surface this is my biggest issue. Second behind that is lack of engine power, but that's a different story all together :iconwink:

d_generate
12th September 2012, 02:50 AM
jf1sf5, you will have LOTS of people on here very interested in the ERM locker :lildevil: Please keep us posted on any updates.

My understanding of the DCCD centre is that the driver dials in whatever ratio he/she wants & the diff sticks to that, whether it is 20/80 or 50/50. I'm not sure if it "locks" the diff though... It is certainly a step up from the standard vLSD centre however. It also seems to be pretty strong going by the high performance engines some hook up to it :twisted:
Your understanding is wrong, the DCCD only goes from 35f/65r to 50f/50r, they don't like being driven in 50/50 mode on bitumen (remembering they were designed for rally use) there is no need for a controller but they are better for track work or off road where you can dial in whatever you want between the 35 & 50 parameters.

NachaLuva
12th September 2012, 06:07 AM
Exc article on the DCCD:
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/sti-transmission-drivetrain/72222-dccd-explained.html

(go to post 8)

jf1sf5
12th September 2012, 07:44 AM
I have already had diagonal wheel spin up a hill with both rear wheels and 1 front wheel on the ground and all the power went on the other front wheel because the center diff is not strong enough...so thats 1 wheel drive, and the wrong one !

taza
12th September 2012, 08:56 AM
I have already had diagonal wheel spin up a hill with both rear wheels and 1 front wheel on the ground and all the power went on the other front wheel because the center diff is not strong enough...so thats 1 wheel drive, and the wrong one !

I have had this happen quite a few times. But for the $$ in comparison to how often that happens I can't justify the cost. But again I don't have money pouring out of my ears to afford it either..

jf1sf5
12th September 2012, 05:09 PM
So do you think that with a DCCD, I could have gone up my hill ?

stilson
12th September 2012, 05:47 PM
I think it would have got you up the hill or spun the diagonal rear also.

I'm sold on the idea of a helical front diff but I'm not sure if I should get the cheap OBX or save for the Quaife.

jf1sf5
14th September 2012, 11:40 AM
Is the OBX a helical ?

jf1sf5
14th September 2012, 11:48 AM
Mmmmmh, not sure I would have got up that hill then.

And as the DCCD is a sort of a clutch type diff, it maybe gets used or burnt ?

stilson
14th September 2012, 08:25 PM
Yeah the OBX is a copy of the quaife.

The DCCD would probably burn out if you drove about in 50/50 lock on tarmac all the time. I can't see it having any problems if used correctly though.

Bear in mind I've never seen, owned or driven one.

jf1sf5
15th September 2012, 03:45 PM
I have read here somewhere that the center LSD can go in the rear diff with little modifications...what about a DCCD, is it about the same size ?

Well, I think I am going to find one of those...

stilson
15th September 2012, 08:36 PM
I don't think it would work as it has an uneven torque split when unlocked.

This makes for some good reading:

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/sti-transmission-drivetrain/72222-dccd-explained.html

Biesel
16th September 2012, 06:14 AM
Stilson, from what i've read the obx diff is a great diff as long as you replace the factory washers.

http://rbryant.freeshell.org/obx_washers.htm

d_generate
16th September 2012, 07:36 AM
I think you'll find most of those articles about the washers are quite old, I'm pretty sure OBX has since uprated the quality of their diffs since they were written, also most of the failures were on cars punching pretty high HP numbers through them, with the Subi it's a bit more spread out.

El_Freddo
16th September 2012, 09:34 AM
I have read here somewhere that the center LSD can go in the rear diff with little modifications.

Not sure that this is any where near accurate. I'd call it impossible without redesigning the rear diff...

Stilson, from what i've read the obx diff is a great diff as long as you replace the factory washers.

I'm pretty sure OBX has since uprated the quality of their diffs since they were written, also most of the failures were on cars punching pretty high HP numbers through them,

I hope so! My LSD is waiting on me to find a new centre diff (lockable) then I'll have my "fully sick" gearbox ready to go into Ruby Scoo - that'll be an awesome day!

Cheers

Bennie

jf1sf5
16th September 2012, 01:48 PM
I was just curious about the DCCD, but I'm still going for the rear locker, and after that maybe a center locker, but one thing at a time, I'm swiss but not rich !

Biesel
16th September 2012, 07:55 PM
Did you buy an obx front diff el freddo?

They don't seem to make one for 6speeds :( but i see JDM sti front diffs come up on ebay for very cheap. like $280 aud but with $140 shipping. I don't know how the STI diffs rate.

El_Freddo
17th September 2012, 09:21 AM
Did you buy an obx front diff el freddo?

Yeah I did. Venom's got one in his H6 and it goes well - so I figured it should go well in the L series as well. But I've got to get a "new" secondhand locking centre diff in good/great condition as mine turned out to be fried - the fella building the box said he's never seen one so bad and was surprised it was still in one piece!

They don't seem to make one for 6speeds :( but i see JDM sti front diffs come up on ebay for very cheap. like $280 aud but with $140 shipping. I don't know how the STI diffs rate.

Probably more of a case that they haven't opened up a 6 speed to see if it will fit (expense) or they haven't copied an expensive unit that has put in the research!

The STi LSDs should be good - they're factory to begin with, but the type of LSD that they are could be the main issue with offroading - that usual thing of the difference between bitumen and offroad use...

Cheers

Bennie

Biesel
17th September 2012, 10:23 AM
The sti front diff is a torsen same as obx.

stilson
17th September 2012, 11:24 AM
Yeah I did. But I've got to get a "new" secondhand locking centre diff in good/great condition as mine turned out to be fried - the fella building the box said he's never seen one so bad and was surprised it was still in one piece!

Cheers

Bennie

Damn, that's rotten luck.

jf1sf5
17th September 2012, 02:55 PM
Hi El Freddo, you say you have a center locker in your L series, is it a full time 4WD with center locker or is it a FWD and then you engage 4WD which means no center diff ?

taza
18th September 2012, 11:39 AM
^ It's Part Time 4WD. He current has FWD then puts it into 4WD and has the option of Hi or Low range. So No Centre diff.

While you can get a Vortex box (rare) that is AWD (has centre diff) but can be locked by the flick of a switch (vacuum pressure). I currently only know 2 people with this setup and EL_Freddo will soon make a 3rd person when he completes his new box.

jf1sf5
18th September 2012, 02:15 PM
Thank you Taza (I drove through Taza, little town in south Morocco !)

By the way, in what subaru was the Vortex built, maybe I can find one over here.

thunder039
18th September 2012, 08:53 PM
vortex also known as the alcyone

Barry
18th September 2012, 09:58 PM
Vortex a.k.a. 'rocking horse poo' - i.e about as rare as.

I'm still looking foward to seeing the details of the dna results for the Yowi - on which day the locking rear diff which is the origin of this thread will be released... by which time I hope it will be compatible with my zimmer frame! :rotfl:

We all live in hope. :iconwink:

stilson
19th September 2012, 12:10 AM
The thread has spurred a lot of talk of alternative limited slip devices.

d_generate
19th September 2012, 05:31 AM
The sti front diff is a torsen same as obx.
I had a brand new STI front 1.5-2 way diff and they are clutch pack, I sold it for $1,500 as I was told they were not as good as a torsen for slogging around like we do and make lots of bangs so I bought an OBX delivered from the States in 4 days and was over the moon with it........along with the 4.44 crown wheel :lildevil: and 1.19 reduction.

You'll find most of the diffs available for Subi's here.
Japanparts.com - Mail order from Japan directly|JDM Parts,Performance Auto Parts,for Subaru, Mazda,Mitsubishi,Honda,Nissan,Toyota car (http://www.japanparts.com/)

NachaLuva
19th September 2012, 07:12 AM
How much would a standard plated rear LSD cost to buy? New & S/H...

jf1sf5
19th September 2012, 04:30 PM
Well, a complete 2nd hand rear diff costs about 800 AU$ here with about 50'000 km.

But if you wait a few months, I'll have a rear locker and will tell you how much it costs (about 1'200 €)

Biesel
21st September 2012, 06:22 AM
I had a brand new STI front 1.5-2 way diff and they are clutch pack, I sold it for $1,500 as I was told they were not as good as a torsen for slogging around like we do and make lots of bangs so I bought an OBX delivered from the States in 4 days and was over the moon with it........along with the 4.44 crown wheel :lildevil: and 1.19 reduction.

You'll find most of the diffs available for Subi's here.
Japanparts.com - Mail order from Japan directly|JDM Parts,Performance Auto Parts,for Subaru, Mazda,Mitsubishi,Honda,Nissan,Toyota car (http://www.japanparts.com/)

Why does everything i read say that 6spd sti come with torsen then?? evn the people selling them say they are?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JDM-Subaru-Impreza-Front-torsen-LSD-helical-GDB-GRB-sti-wrx-differential-ratio-/180972476218?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a22ccd73a

jf1sf5
7th March 2013, 04:22 PM
I have some fresh news, my rear locker should be done for april...

garrettG
7th March 2013, 05:56 PM
I have some fresh news, my rear locker should be done for april...

Will you be making me one aswell?;)

You're stoked, I'm excited to finally see one come together

-Garrett

Rally
8th March 2013, 12:49 AM
The STI front diff from a 6 speed (ADM MY05 onwards) is a helical type LSD. They are not a plate type. The functional difference between a helical and a plate type is that a helical needs some load on the opposing wheel to work. So if one wheel is off the ground, the diff acts like an open diff. In race applications, the helical has other limitations as well. But they work a treat on the skidpan, and my expectation is that they should work well in muddy, sandy, gravel situations where both front wheels remain on the ground. Plated diffs are available for them. I'm going for the helical front diff as I have one laying around out of a mate's 06STI. The reason being he races it on the circuit and now runs a plated front diff.

Why does everything i read say that 6spd sti come with torsen then?? evn the people selling them say they are?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JDM-Subaru-Impreza-Front-torsen-LSD-helical-GDB-GRB-sti-wrx-differential-ratio-/180972476218?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a22ccd73a

stilson
8th March 2013, 02:05 AM
Dragging the brake should engage a helical right?

mr turbo
8th March 2013, 02:41 AM
I have some fresh news, my rear locker should be done for april...
Thats great to hear. Bring on April I say :raz:

Regards
Mr Turbo

Rally
8th March 2013, 02:48 AM
In theory, but never tried it.

Dragging the brake should engage a helical right?

Biesel
8th March 2013, 04:29 AM
Yeah I'm pretty sure the helical diffs subaru use are just a revised design of the old yank torsen(torque sensing) diffs. they have a pre loaded bias usually 5:1 meaning if the wheel with low traction is generating 20nm of torque say. the worm gears inside the diff will bias 5 times that (100nm) to the wheel with traction. These diffs are great for reliability no more maintanence then a standard diff. problem is wheel popping.

Put a wheel in the air it starts to free spin it's generating no torque thus 5 x 0 = 0nm of torque to the tyre with traction. the US army fit torsen diffs to those hummer things they drive apparently and train the drivers to pulse the brakes and throttle if they get hung up etc. I think this type of diffs fitted to the SH foz with it's brake pulsing VDC could make it a real weapon.

The problem with clutch/fluid type diffs is they work off wheel speed if both wheels turn at the same sped they are happy this gives basically a 50/50 torque split. this means though if a wheel loses traction 50% of that power is lost out that wheel. Same for locking diffs. where the torsen is nice is it will actually give you more than 50% to the wheel with traction. Like i said i think most are 5:1 some are 7:1 NFI what subaru would use. clutch/fluid/lockers work though when a wheel is in the air because they work off speed not torque they are activate by one wheel turning very fast an the other turning slower or not at all.

Hybrids, companies like wavetec make a torsen type diff with a clutch LSD inside it. This means that the diff operates as a torsen diff but if a tyre starts turning significantly faster than the other. the clutch part of the diff than starts to apply some resistive slowing force to the wheel that is spinning thus it starts to generate torque then the bias ratio of that torque goes to the wheel with traction.

I think this is right for the helical type diffs subaru use? Some newer torsen diffs i think also have a variable range of bias not just a set amount or this is atleast the impression quaifie give for their design.

NachaLuva
8th March 2013, 08:47 AM
I have some fresh news, my rear locker should be done for april...

I'm keen but not sure bout my wallet! :iconwink:

hydrowill
3rd April 2013, 11:47 PM
Any news on the locker? Really want one hey.

Rally
4th April 2013, 12:15 AM
If you cannot wait for a locker diff, why not use a plated one? Recent expereince has shown that in conjunction with an STI front diff, they work very well

hydrowill
4th April 2013, 04:32 AM
I have a viscous lsd in the rear, hopefully get the dccd in soon and a front lsd. Rear locker would be the bomb though.

jf1sf5
4th April 2013, 04:02 PM
As said yesterday on "what have you done to your car today", it should be another month waiting the rear locker. :madred:

Rally
6th April 2013, 03:47 PM
One thing you should keep in mind is that locker diffs are generally noisy and, for street use, rather crude. I was speaking to Dave about this and he was surprised people were considering them, when plated diffs give similar results and are more suitable for street use. However, it is an interesting engineering exercise and it will be interesting to see how it all goes. My front diff conversion was not that different. Never been done before but fascinating should it actually all come together, which it did. All the best with it.

jf1sf5
6th April 2013, 04:20 PM
I don't understand why a differential locker would be noisy for street use, I wouldn't lock it on tarmac, only when needed.
In the STI box TY752vb6ea I bought from england (JDM), there is a factory helical differential that just easily fits a Forester box...well, I won't need it as i already have a Quaife since 7 years, but nothing very new about adapting a helical front differential...?

Rally
6th April 2013, 07:03 PM
Sorry, I had not read this thread for a while and I had to go back to see you are looking at one you can manually lock. My comments relate to a conventional locker diff and how they are noisy and crude for the street. Yours should not have that problem.

As I understand it, the box you refer to with the helical front diff is from a 5 speed box? The helical diff in my car is from a 6 speed gearbox- very different gearboxes.

jf1sf5
7th April 2013, 01:48 PM
Yes, it's a 5 speed box.

So you adapted a 6 speed helical in your 5 speed DR box, right ?

Rally
7th April 2013, 03:14 PM
Correct

jf1sf5
29th July 2013, 03:39 PM
My rear locker project is dead...the mechanic I met in august last year that told me he could sure adapt a Suzuki Samurai differential with locker in the r160 housing hasn't done anything yet, so I sadly abandoned this project.

I now have a Quaife waiting to be installed in the rear by a week or two...

Dedman
29th July 2013, 06:43 PM
This is very sad indeed. :shake: I was so looking forwards to hearing the results of this project... It took your mechanic a year not to do anything????.....

Hopefully in a year or two I will have sufficient funds to get some equipment to engineer and build my own from scratch :ebiggrin:

hydrowill
30th July 2013, 03:38 AM
Dedman home much do you anticipate it would cost?

thunder039
30th July 2013, 05:14 AM
It doest suprise me that you mechanic couldn't get it to fit. the suzuki diffs are very different from the r160 subarus. i wouldn't love a diff locker but i think i would go for a good LSD over a manual locker just because i hate driver cars with open diffs in the rear

Dedman
30th July 2013, 05:38 AM
Dedman home much do you anticipate it would cost?

No idea. I haven't looked into it closely enough yet as I currently dont have the money or time but a prototype would be pretty costly I would imagine as making all the gears/engaging mechanism/axle splines hard enough would be a real challenge and possibly quite expensive.

Needless to say, when I give it a go I will keep you all posted.

Out of interest what would people be prepared to pay for one.

I think i would go for a good LSD over a manual locker just because i hate driver cars with open diffs in the rear

Definitely don't agree on that one. A locker would make a Subie near unstoppable offroad which is all im interested in :ebiggrin: :ebiggrin: :ebiggrin: But different strokes for different folks i guess.... :o

thunder039
30th July 2013, 05:59 AM
if was a dedicated off roader then yes of course a manual locker is better, but most especially subarus are not dedicated offroaders and i would prefer a nice tight LSD in this case.
i'm actually looking at combining these two preferences with an auto locker (detroit locker) works like a constantly locked diff so great off road but allows you to turn corners on road, and a hell of a lot more fun then a open rear on road :raspberry:

Rally
30th July 2013, 07:07 AM
I can understand why Dedman would want to engineer a locker and think that is great. But I don't understand why other people don't appreciate what a good LSD can do to these cars. I don't know of any car on this forum that would out perform my car in this area with it's diffs. All you need are the readily available parts and a mechanic who knows how to do it right. Using readily available parts is for those without the gifts and skills Dedman has should, I would have thought, be very important.

hydrowill
30th July 2013, 07:18 AM
Out of interest what would people be prepared to pay for one. I rekon a similar price to what one of the KAAZ rear LSDs would be reasonable. I have two 4.11 diffs kicking around too.

if was a dedicated off roader then yes of course a manual locker is better, but most especially subarus are not dedicated offroaders and i would prefer a nice tight LSD in this case.

Sorry Thunder not sure I agree, open diffs will always handle better on road than than a tight LSD for a daily driver. Better on tire wear too. The ability to then lock the diff offroad will be better than any LSD. Subies would be a weapon with a locker.

Dedman
30th July 2013, 07:49 AM
without the gifts and skills Dedman has
Haha maybe that should be skills Dedman thinks he has or would like to have....:rotfl:


Sorry Thunder not sure I agree, open diffs will always handle better on road than than a tight LSD for a daily driver. Better on tire wear too. The ability to then lock the diff offroad will be better than any LSD. Subies would be a weapon with a locker.

I am going to have to agree with this as well. A car as my daily driver isn't going to be driving gunning it around every corner I can find. Im not wealthy enough for the day I screw it up and total someones car or someone. For this reason I also believe that open diffs are the best for on road and having a manual locker means you have an open diff on road (perfect for a daily driver) and the ultimate off road diff as well.

Also are detriot lockers actually good on-road? My understanding of them is (and it could be completely wrong) that during a corner the outside wheel freewheels (has no drive) and all the power is transferred to the slower (inside) wheel unless it slips enough to be rotating at equal speed to the outside wheel when the diff will then act as 'locked' again. Doesn't this result in the inside wheel providing less lateral grip (when pushing it through a corner) which is not ideal and also possible losses in grip on the outside wheel during sudden power transfer as the diff locks. I imagine they would be rather good for drifting but again not really for a daily driver.

Please correct me if im wrong in my understanding of Detroit lockers as i dont know much about them and would love to have a better understanding :o

Rally
30th July 2013, 08:22 AM
I really must disagree. Both my Forrie and WRX have plated rear and helical front diffs. The WRX also has DCCD/plated centre diff. The Forester simply does not have the power to do anything anyway- and I use it as a daily driver. Off road it has been unstoppable thus far.

The WRX is utterly controllable. It does everything you want it to do. I can do a perfect 180 degree "handbrake" turn without using the handbrake, just by steering on the throttle and a bit of steering- less than 90 degrees from the straight ahead in either direction and closer to 60. (Which I can assure you is a most incredible feeling) You just point it and the diffs do not work against you. You simply hold the slide for as long as you like. The only down point is with the front diff, if your car has a lot of power you will get torque steer.

With a powerful car it allows you to steer the car on the throttle if you want to have fun. With a less powerful car, or if not driving for fun, the car behaves normally. The only downside as I said was a torque steer in the WRX, and with the KAAZ rear diff in the Forrie a rumble and slight vibration accelerating out of 90 degree corners. It won't be LSD's that cause accidents from my experience.

NachaLuva
30th July 2013, 09:21 AM
Can you have a locker in a LSD diff?

While I agree with Rally that front & rear LSDs, esp if combined with a DCCD as with Venom, make a Subie very capable offroad, I would think a locker would make it even better...

Plus I imagine a tightly wound up pLSD would need more maintenance. However, it may work the other way as tighter binding means less slip so less wear :shrug:

jf1sf5
30th July 2013, 03:37 PM
In 3 weeks, I'll go to a 4x4 festival in Valloire, France where there is also a free zone to test our 4x4's. Last year, I was already happy with my mods (the only SUV... and much better than a L200). This year with the few new mods I think I'll have real fun !

hydrowill
30th July 2013, 08:17 PM
Not denying that front n rear lsds makes a capable car. Just a locker would be nicer for daily use.

I reckon it would work in my open style vlsd nachaluva.

Dedman
30th July 2013, 08:52 PM
It won't be LSD's that cause accidents from my experience.

I wasn't suggesting LSD's would be causing accidents more my lack of skill would which I why I drive relatively sensibly on the road :cool:

I am really not convinced that a Detroit locker would be at all good on road though as after researching how they work, they do not allow a wheel to travel at a slower speed than the drive speed. This by default means that 100% of power will always be transferred to the inside wheel when cornering on road (until it breaks traction) which in terms of handling and driveability on road i cant understand being better than an open diff.

I can understand LSDs being superior for handling and predictability but I believe they would produce more tyre wear.

I am actually quite interested in your setup rally. If you were in a situation such as my profile pic with diagonal wheel having no traction/in the air, would your diffs be able to allow you to crawl relatively slowly forwards or do the diff only work well with quite a bit of speed difference between the wheels (you would have to give it quite a bit to get through)?

Not denying that front n rear lsds makes a capable car. Just a locker would be nicer for daily use.


Yep my thoughts exactly. If i had the money I would go some LSDs for the time being.

Rally
31st July 2013, 03:47 AM
I'd like to give it a go. The front diff needs both wheels on the ground. The theory with the rear diff is that it should still provide traction with a lifted wheel. My experience has been that you would apply power gradually so as allow the clutch packs to do their work. I once had the diffs on the WRX open up under severe provocation- but perhaps the Forrie lacks the power for that to happen. Still, smoothness is important off road isn't it. If only I could get that video of mine from a few months ago edited to show you what it did compared to the Patrol.

thunder039
31st July 2013, 04:50 AM
just to clarify a few things i never said a locker wouldnt be great. i would love one in an off roader. i was just saying that in a car that isn't a dedicated off roader (like most 4wds) i would rather a LSD as they still work well offroad and on road.
also with the detroit locker, my daily driving isnt in the burbs its on a country highway so i do very little cornering to worry about it

El_Freddo
1st August 2013, 07:45 AM
My rear locker project is dead...

This sucks!

Not denying that front n rear lsds makes a capable car. Just a locker would be nicer for daily use.

Especially in a daily AWD - which I would say about 99.9% of us on here are running now. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm not far off either with the AWD :D

I am really not convinced that a Detroit locker would be at all good on road though as after researching how they work, they do not allow a wheel to travel at a slower speed than the drive speed. This by default means that 100% of power will always be transferred to the inside wheel when cornering on road (until it breaks traction) which in terms of handling and driveability on road i cant understand being better than an open diff.

This is where you're not thinking 4wd as the prime reason for the auto unlocker. It will still behave itself on road so long as you're not throwing the vehicle around violently. I'm sure being an AWD you'll have even less issues with handling compared to rear wheel drives in every cornering situation.

I know there are AWD landcruisers getting around out there as daily drives with auto unlockers in the rear without problems in the handling department.

I want a manual locker so I can decide when I want to use it, and more importantly, how far into trouble I want to get :twisted:

Cheers

Bennie

Biesel
2nd August 2013, 06:46 AM
Another thing to remember is auto lockers require throttle to lock. manual lockers constantly lock the two axles together, so they can help with car control when going down steep slopes.

NachaLuva
2nd August 2013, 07:12 AM
I thought auto lockers are always locked until cornering causes them to unlock, hence Bennie calling them "auto-unlockers"...

thunder039
2nd August 2013, 07:22 AM
your close nachaluva. there are known as auto unlockers but only when there is no (or little) pressure applied they do unlock. as soon as there is pressure they lock. and biesel that is a great point about going down hills i didnt think of.
also for me the major selling point of auto lockers is that they there reliable, due to no air lines or o-rings to fail (which they do). And there much cheaper then manual lockers, less then half the price in most cases then you will save more again on the install as there generally easier to install

Biesel
3rd August 2013, 03:45 AM
Yeah my understanding with autolockers is they need throttle or torque to lock otherwise they are an open diff. This is why they are so popular for the part time 4wd boys for the front diff. as when you are driving around in rear wheel drive only on the road cause the front diff has no engine torque going to it, It's basically an open diff.

They are good for part time 4wd in the front diff to save some coin. generally going down hill under engine breaking you want the front wheels to spin freely so you have steering, but it's nice to lock the rears together to give more control this is where a manual air or electric locker works better.

BTW can anyone confirm for me if a 1.5 or 2way LSD provides locking under engine braking? I assume so as they always talk about added stability of 1.5/2 way lsd for race cars under brakes.

twowings
7th August 2013, 12:13 AM
I daily-drove and offroaded a CJ-7 with Detroits front and rear for 12 years...

Pros:bulletproof; damn near unstoppable off-road; no air lines, switches, or compressors to fail; perfect for the rear axle; longer the wheelbase the less vehicle affected by accelerate/decelerate (the dreaded unintended lane-change); takes about 2 weeks of driving to learn to automatically countersteer to compensate for effects of accceleration/deceleration

Cons: the shorter the wheelbase the greater the on-road "duck-waddle" under on-or-off throttle; front steering with front locker engaged makes tight trail turns into 3+-point turns (I ran twin-sticked Dana 300 t-case so could disengage the front axle driveshaft at will to avoid this); extremely dangerous on ice - vehicle will swap ends in a heartbeat and short wheelbase aggravates this; can be inadvertantly induced to lock with a very loud "bang" making one think the differentials have just grenaded - not a worry as it causes no damage

Wonderful product - absolutely NO problems in 12 years of daily driving and 4-5 star rated trails. NOT ideally suited to front diff use unless front-drive can be engaged/disengaged from inside vehicle, an LSD or air locker would be a better choice.

Probably more than anyone here ever wanted/needed to know about Detroits..;)

NachaLuva
7th August 2013, 12:19 AM
Probably more than anyone here ever wanted/needed to know about Detroits..;)

Not at all, exactly the kind of info we wanted to hear :iconwink:

My worry bout the auto locker isnt just the driveability but also the effect of the "grenading" on CVs etc...the reliability of related components.

thunder039
7th August 2013, 04:47 AM
Probably more than anyone here ever wanted/needed to know about Detroits..;)

na mate that is a great review

mr turbo
7th August 2013, 05:03 AM
Ditto to the above :)

Regards
Mr Turbo